Gary M

So after the motor is broken in do you still need the zinc additive on a 72 455 with a 474/232@173* cam?

oldcutlass

You don't need an additive. You need an oil that has a good friction pkg. I use Valvoline VR1 10w30 in my older engines. There are other oils that are formulated for these older engines and everyone has an opinion. A quality oil is not nearly as expensive as an engine. Your choice.

Gary M

The reason I ask is I bought a car that after the breakin oil had an oil listed on the receipt as 5W30. The owner knows cars so I'm sure he used a good oil. I used the zinc on every oil change on my black cutlass.

oldcutlass

What brand oil did he use? Some of the additives don't mix well with some oils.

BangScreech4-4-2

^^^ This. I try to stay with the same brand and type of oil throughout the lifetime of my cars. Not always possible, but I always consider it.


As far as your original query goes, if you're running a flat tappet cam I'd use an oil with a good ZDDP content. Cheap insurance against zeroing your lobes.

jfb

I use comp cams oil additive and have had no problems so far it is around 10 bucks at most speed shops. I am just surprised that bearing materials etc have changed that much back in the day a lot of people raced constantly on the older parts. I cannot see a reason to change the metallurgy when racing proved its strength and durability. 10 to 15 percent of alcohol does not seem tramatic compared to 100 percent in racing and they use methanol not ethanol which does not have the properties of dramatic increase of water and humidity build up.

dfoisy

I'm with Oldcutlass on the additives. There have been oil studies done where the zinc additive from any manufacturer reduces the oils effectiveness. No new light weight oil is designed for the forces present in flat tappet engines. This is why European spec oils have a much better additive package than US spec. You may never have an issue, but is a few dollars a quart worth the chance? I learned a very expensive lesson on my 396 Chevy build. $5000 spent on the engine and only 3 months of driving and lost 3 lobes. This wasn't a wild cam, it was just a factory 375 horsepower solid lifter stick. I was so disgusted I just cut my losses and sold the car for less than half of what I had in it which is a hell of a thing since it was just a rolling chassis, block and crank when I started. I'll see if I can find a study and post it.

MDchanic

About an ounce and a half of Lucas break-in additive each oil change will give your oil the amount of ZDDP that oils had before the levels were reduced.

And what's with the 5w30? GM specified 10w30 winter / 10w40 summer.

- Eric

dfoisy

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/
Very long, but if you scroll to the testing about halfway down, you'll see the where he tested the same oils with Zinc additives

Gary M

Seller has not responded so I'm changing it cause he said after the break in he put in regular oil. 1100 miles since he did that

Inline

Dunno do they sell anything Teboil-labeled at US, but they came out this spring with new oil designated especially for old vehicles + air-cooled vw/ Porsche / hurley-durley engines too, 20W-50 full mineral.

Gave them an question, and they called. Amount of additives ( before someone tests it) is not listed anywhere, but tech assured me it contains every critical particle needed on oil which is especially designated for old vehicles. And its even relatively cheap, ~same price as Mobil 1.

Im gonna use that, since ive always used Teboil oils, and no failure havnt been due to them, so cant complain.

MDchanic

Okay, I read through a bit of 540Rat's blog.

I've read through bits of it before, but I will admit I have not read through it in the past few years, and have never read the whole thing, and I will say that he has new information there, especially the bits about ZDDP not helping in overall wear protection.

I have also perused these posts by the same person, who, in spite of his considerable work, seems to prefer to remain anonymous, in which he promotes a product called "Oil Extreme," and in which some other people are critical of his results.
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...-the-test.html
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=1&t=36352

I personally cannot comment on his results, as I am not a lubricant engineer, but I will say these three things:
1. Not being lubrication engineers ourselves, we have to take 540Rat's word that the quality he tests for is, in fact, the most important quality in a motor oil, and is the most important specifically for cam lobe durability. He spends a fair amount of space at the top of the blog attempting to validate this claim using anecdotes, but, while this may be helpful, it cannot replace statistical data drawn from a large experimental group (something that a single person working alone would, of course, never be able to obtain).
2. The enthusiastic language he uses to describe Oil Extreme in some posts is unseemly, and appears, to me at least, to be inconsistent with what I would expect from a dedicated engineer.
3. If you read his rankings on his blog (actually located about 1/6th of the way from the beginning), the highest ratings are obtained using an additive called "Prolong Engine Treatment," while those for Oil Extreme are several entries lower. This would seem to indicate that he is not simply selling out to Oil Extreme, and helps shore up his claim of impartiality.

So, what's my point?

1. It looks like ZDDP alone is not the solution, according to what appears to be good data.
2. It looks like Prolong Engine Treatment is very good at making oils lubricate better.
3. It looks like Oil Extreme is pretty darn good at that, too.
4. I'd sure like to see some objective longevity results from a known reputable independent source, such as Consumers' Union, that shows not only that one oil is a better lubricant than another, but that that oil makes engines actually last longer in actual use (such as blind testing in taxi cab and Highway Patrol fleets).

- Eric

oldcutlass

You can't use fleet or taxicabs to compare anymore as most cars today are roller cam setups and not flat tappet. In most cases with a roller cam any oil will work fine. I've followed 540rats blog full length to include the additional info pertaining to additives and deisel oils. I think there is a lot of info there that makes sense. There is also a listing of oils based on his testing he has deemed beat to worst. There has been no other independent tests done and such a varied amount of samples done anywhere.

MDchanic

Agreed, in general, but while modern fleet testing would not help with the specific problem of flat tappet cam lobe wear, it would validate general claims of increased longevity, which would be very helpful.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Longevity of the other engine parts is not the issue, its only the contact between cam lobes and lifters that fail due to modern day oils. I've never heard of any cam, rod, or main bearing failures due to oils. Cam to lifter contact seems to be most severe wear point inside our old OHV engines

redoldsman

Here is another possibility.

https://www.hemmings.com/store/detail?product_id=1810

MDchanic

Okay. You've made an effective case.

His data are useless in the real world until he finds a major engine rebuilder who is willing to randomly break in engines with a variety of oils, then recommend specific oils to their buyers / users, make sure that those users actually use the recommended oil (perhaps by supplying it to them), and then tabulating the mileage at which cam lobes fail for each oil over a period of several years.

Impossible? Yes.

But I wouldn't mind seeing whether the oils that he says are the best give an engine - any engine - an extra 100 or 200 thousand miles of real-world use within a statistically valid sample.

- Eric

MDchanic

540Rat doesn't list Hemmings Motor News oil, but does list this, at position #165 (way down the list from the top ratings):
"10W30 Champion Racing Oil, synthetic blend = 67,239 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD"

- Eric

oldcutlass

I don't see how thats relevant as most old car owners are not using them as DD's and will never get that many miles out of an engine in their lifetime. The most wear on operating any engine is the cold startup and extended idling. If you read what 540rat looks at and hopefully is consistent in his testing his ratings make sense. I believe if you stick to the top 15 motor oils on his list, you really can't go wrong. I have never heard of anyone wiping out a cam using them.

oldcutlass

I don't see how thats relevant as most old car owners are not using them as DD's and will never get that many miles out of an engine in their lifetime. The most wear on operating any engine is the cold startup and extended idling. If you read what 540rat looks at and hopefully is consistent in his testing his ratings make sense. I believe if you stick to the top 15 motor oils on his list, you really can't go wrong. I have never heard of anyone wiping out a cam using them.

cdrod

So, modern oils are OK if you rebuild your 1971 engine with a hydraulic roller cam? Are there any problems with ZDDP engine oil when using catalytic converters?

RocketRonnie

So question, if you have a engine form 1969 rated comp ratio 10.1 is zinc mandatory or can I do what oldcutlass does with good oil packages. I was told by a neighbor I'm good with the little blue bottle of STP oil adative.

MDchanic

I understand.

My point is that it would be nice to find a solid, statistically significant (as opposed to anecdotal or seeming to "make sense") link between 540Rat's methodology and actual, real-life durability, and the only way that I can see to get enough subjects in a double blind prospective study is to do a fleet study, which is a type of study that has been done many times before, and whose potential failings and strong points are well established.

With a solid, statistically valid link to real-world effects, his further claims of relevance to the special case of flat tappet cam lobes, which constitute a tiny pool where it is impossible to maintain controls or to randomize prospectively, would be bolstered.

Without such a link, regardless of whether his claims make sense to you or me, they remain unproven, and one takes his advice, as opposed to following traditional advice, at his own risk.

- Eric

MDchanic

Somewhere in his writings, 540Rat demonstrates that STP oil additive actually causes a reduction in protection, but I don't remember where, and, as I note above, his claims represent a set of possibly-tru, but unvalidated data points, so they are hard to further evaluate.

- Eric

oldcutlass

The reason modern engine oils do not use ZDDP (zinc an phosphorus) is because it does not play well with cats.

Yes, with hyd roller cams you can use any oil type. However I've seen failures of the rollers on some setups. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I prefer to not use additives when there are oils out there that don't require any. That little blue bottle has been around forever as with some of the other friction treatments. That blue bottle mostly costs $5, almost the difference between a good engine oil and their less expensive counterparts.

RocketRonnie

Thanks olds Cutlass for the Direct answer. I appreciate it.

Gary M

I could not get an answer on what oil was in the car I bought or if it had zinc so I changed the oil, cut open the filter and found very few gold flakes so all is likely ok. Put in a good zinc oil and a new filter.