Ausraven

Hi everyone, just thought I would start a thread on my top end rebuild. This started as a rocker noise and has ended up with a full top rebuild, lol who would have guessed. I have another thread (rocker adjustments???) which explains how I got to this point.

I am leaving the bottom end alone as there is no problem with it and the car is a daily driver so I will be rebuilding to top end as stock, so no extra pressures on the bottom end.

I have decided that the best way to do this is to do it right the first time so I am replacing everything from the timing gears to the valves. The car sat for a long time with very little driving, 2000 miles in 8 years so the lifters gummed up and didn't push oil to the top end pitting the valves and rocker arms pretty bad. Hence why I'm replacing the lot.

I will also be replacing the water pump and radiator hoses and while the engine is out getting cleaned up I'm putting this manifold on her too http://gawain.membrane.com/~thornton..._manifold.html so she can breath better.

Here are some of the photos I have taken so far. Let me know what you think.

Ausraven

Just ordered all the parts for my rebuild.

Stainless stock size valves
Hardened seats
Bronze valve guides
Stock rocker arms from summit racing
Hydraulic 260h comp cams valve train rebuild kit, includes cam, lifters, valves springs, retainers, locks, timing gears and valve seals
Melling HV oil pump
Brass freeze plugs
Clevite cam bearings
Fel pro full gasket set
Hardened stock pushrods
Hei distributor
Water pump and radiator hoses
Water neck and bypass hose
Positive valve seals

Let me know if I have forgotten anything I'm pretty sure I've got everything.

442scotty

I would skip the High volume pump...not required and I would have the HEI curved to your vehicle/engine specs

citcapp

You know a few more bolts and the engine is out of the car. hone the cylinders, new set of rings and bearings and you have a complete rebuild for very little additional work and money. After all it is a 40+ year old engine. Think about it at least.

Ausraven

You know that is a VERY good point Pat. I could get the machine shop to do that while they do the heads. They could balance the crank, clean it up and replace the cam bearings while there at it

Texas Jim

The old saying is true; if you do the top end only, it won't be too long before the bottom end will start to go due to the re-doing of the top end, and vice versa. A valve job/ the re-sealing of the valve trane and everything brought up to specs will give the old rings and bearings a work- out. It just puts more stress on already worn parts. And the engine is 40 plus years old? Yes, I think it deserves both the top and bottom end done to complement each other. And Pat is right. The cost will be minimal due to the over-all situation. Great luck on the rebuild. Please keep us posted.

ziff396

I also agree . One of those been there done that things.

Rickman48

X 5 on the complete - you'll be 2/3's of the way there, and doing the cam bearings, [why?] in the car is a real PIA!!!

Ausraven

The engine is coming out for a clean up and paint so cam bearings won't be a problem.

greenslade

strip her down

Texas Jim

Yes, do the whole thing and have a great engine f/ the next 20 to 30 years or more. Best of Luck on the rebuild.

Ausraven

You all have talked me into it, lol. Didn't take much really, but your right I will do the bottom end and then whole new fresh engine that I won't have to do anything major with for a long time. I am pulling the engine out tomorrow and putting it on the stand so I'll have the heads off to let you all know how it looks on the inside. If all goes well just rings and bearings if not then I'll replace anything else that have not stood the test of time.

citcapp

Good decision. This is what this forum is all about. Good advice everyone. Keep us posted with pictures of your progress

Ausraven

Engine came out today, it just slid right out no problems. Put it on the engine stand and the stand wasn't so sure about the weight but it's ok. Unbolted the manifolds and took the heads off, definately needs a honing. Took some more pics after it was on the stand but as I'm at work I can't upload them yet. Everything is now off the block except crank and pistons, ran out of time as I needed to sleep for night shift. I will definatley be putting the block in the shop to get honed, cam bearings installed and cleaned. It is filthy, no other word for it. Won't be in the shop for a couple of weeks at least as I'm waiting on the parts but while I'm waiting for them to turn up I can tidy up that engine bay. It's almost as bad as the engine lol.

citcapp

Sleep, who needs sleep, get back in the garage and get to work. You've got to get your priorities straight. The Olds comes first, work, who needs it, Unless of course you need the money to fix the Olds, Ok you can take a little time to earn money but not too much.

Ausraven

Lol yeah I need to do the extra work (2 days overtime per week) to pay for the olds. Already dumped $2200 into it and thats not even all the parts now that I'm doing the bottom end. Keeping in mind though that neally $800 of that was just shipping the parts over here, but like everyone who owns and respects an olds it's not the money it's the thrill, pride and sheer enjoyment of it! That and I'm coming over to the States in March next year which I'm really looking forward to so plenty of overtime for me between now and then

And I don't get much sleep either Pat, only 6 hours a night so there is still plenty of time left in my day for the olds.

1973olds98

i would replace the oil pump

Ausraven

Does anyone know where I could get the rings and bearings from? I've looked at summit and they only seem to want to sell the whole piston but mine seem fine, alls I want are the rings. Also would it be a good idea to have my crank balanced, I've always thought it is but some advice on weather it actually is or not would be muchly appreciated

Ausraven

Here are some more pics now that the engine is out and mostly pulled apart. I have cleaned up a couple of parts already, nice surprise to see how well they come up.

1973olds98

you might as well drop the tranny and replace the front and rear seal,,,and change the filter,,

Ausraven

Just looking at exhaust systems for the build. As I'm putting the repro drivers side manifold on I am looking for a good 2 1/2 exhaust to help with flow. I have been looking and I found on ebay a cat back exhaust for a 69 cutlass. I was wondering if this will fit my car (69 4 dr 98) at all, minor adjustments are ok. I can get the pipe from the manifold to meet with this system as long as it goes over the diff and around the gas tank.

Here is a link to one of them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Magna...Q5fAccessories

Please let me know what you all think.

Also I have to replace the front seal on the tranny anyway so taking it down now would be the optimum time as I wouldn't have to pay for them to take it out and put it back in and I could clean it up and paint it to match the engine at the same time.

64Rocket

You should take the car down to your best local muffler shop and have them bend the pipes for the whole sys. Front to back out of 2.1/2 exhaust pipe.
Check out your local shops and when you are done with the engine and back in the car take it to them.
That sys on Ebay is for the Cutlass and the wheel base is different, parts will be ok but your local muffler shop, if they are good, can build it in no time.

Gene

MDchanic

No cat on a '69, mate.

No way, unless by "minor adjustments" you mean reshaping the entire thing.

- Eric

Ausraven

Thanks Eric thats the info I needed. I didn't plan on putting a cat on it, but thanks again for the conformation.

More parts turned up today, it's like Christmas, but with presents you actually want lol.

Rickman48

I'd be having the machine shop check all the cyl. bores for wear or out-of-roundness before ordering any rings!
There's a certain amount you can hone before the pistons 'rock' in the bore, causing failure - cracked pistons!
Pistons, too, have tolerances, and the ring lands have to be cleaned.
Don't forget to use some good 'diesel' oil for break-in, as the zinc will help break-in the lifters and rings.
And a 'high-volumn' oil pump is preferred over a 'high pressure' pump with the large journals on an Olds!
Make sure the block is 'hot-tanked' before honing or cam bearings - get that sludge out of the oil passages!

Ausraven

HELP!!! One of my pistons rolled off the bench and a small piece broke off from the bottom. What do I do? I was thinking about putting the block in the shop still and having them check the bore to see if it is ok to stay standard. If it is where would I get a replacement piston from? Would need to be same as what I have. If I have to bore it what would be a good set for my application remembering that the engine is pretty well stock but I don't want to lose the high comp that it came with.
Thanks for all the help with this.
Adrian

citcapp

I sold my stock pistons, but I am sure someone here has a stock bore hi-compression piston laying around and can help you out.

64Rocket

You may be able to reuse the piston, if it is just a very small chip. Need a few pic's to get some idea.
I also may have some stock pistons.
Give us some pic's and we can go from there.
Gene

Ausraven

I had the block checked and it is on the limit so I am going to bore it. From what I have read here on other forums 30 thou is the best for first bore. Now I'm needing some advice on what pistons to get. I have read that KB are good but fragile so prob wouldn't last the trip over here. I was hoping to use the rods I have so the pistons will need to fit them but also give me the high comp I'm after. The fuel I will be running is 95 - 98 octane. Thanks for all the advise. I know they will be a few hundred and that is ok as long as they are the right ones.

ralsy

Have a look at Mondello. They have either alloy(around $ 500) or iron pistons(around $350).
Where abouts in Brisy are you? Wouldn’t mind coming over for a looksee. I'm just up on the sunny coast.

Warhead

I'd avoid Mondello like the plague if I were you.
Bad service, wrong parts, poor/lousy return issues, I too have had this with these people.

Pistons are all made of aluminum, forged or cast. The KB silovites will be fine on the trip over, some complain that they do not hold up to detonation well. A cast piston is all you really need, finding a set at a decent price is the first issue, then having it shipped without having to file a sexual harassment suit is the other.
Good luck,
Jim

Texas Jim

Jim,
Is Mondello really that bad? Is it due to someone else (family member) taking over the shop or have they always been like that? If so, it's a good thing to know since Mondello is such a big name when it comes to Performance Oldsmobile, and I know I'd be more apt to going w/ them just due to the Mondello name. Thanks.

citcapp

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-KB277-030/

I run these in my 57 Olds. Work great, no issues. You hear pro's and con's concerning these pistons. My engine builder recommends these and has had no problems. You have to make sure the bore is correct and that the ring gap is correct. Do that and no problem

Ausraven

Thanks for the heads up on mondello Jim, I don't want to be stuffed around with parts so I will steer clear. I was looking at those pistons Pat but wasn't sure so thanks for the advise, again. Do they come with rings or will I have to source them too?

I won't bore the block till I have pistons in hand, that way no chance of over or under bore. Can I just "knock" out the con rod pins while holding in proper jig or will I need to get them pressed out and pressed onto new pistons?

Your advice has been priceless on this rebuild everyone, thanks heaps

Adrian

Rickman48

You probaby 'break off' the old pistons, but you take a chance of 'galling' the pin - making it hard to get through the rod, without polishing it out!
Let the shop do it right - maybe you could re-sell the pistons!

Or do what my nephew did - get a stroker kit that has everything!! 496 C.I.!!

cutlassefi

With gas that good I'd certainly shot for at least 10.0:1. Imo just go .020 over if your machinist thinks it'll clean up at that and they have the pistons.

citcapp

You can buy the Keith Black pistons with the ring kit from Summit as a package. They will get you to the 10.0.1 the Cutlassefi suggests. Also send Cutlassefi an pm and get some cam advice as well

Pat

MDchanic

Not sure, Cutlassfi, but I think their fuel rating system is different than ours.
That whole thing about Research Octane vs Motor Octane.
Our number is an average of the two, but I think that Down Under, they use the same Research Octane system that they use in Europe.
To get a sense of what his number is equivalent over here, subtract somewhere around 4 or 5, making his fuel equal to our 90 - 93 octane.

- Eric

geckonz08

Really ??.I wasn`t aware of that .Will have to do some research cos I am wanting to run my 425 toro on our 96 octane with a 10-10.5 cr
mike

geckonz08

From Wikipedia --Eric you are correct. learn something every day

Different countries have some variation in what RON (research octane number) is standard for gasoline, or petrol. In Finland and Sweden, 95 RON is the standard for regular unleaded petrol and 98 RON is also available as a more expensive option. In the UK, ordinary regular unleaded petrol is 91 RON (not commonly available), premium unleaded petrol is always 95 RON, and super unleaded is usually 97-98 RON. However both Shell and BP produce fuel at 102 RON for cars with hi-performance engines, and the supermarket chain Tesco began in 2006 to sell super unleaded petrol rated at 99 RON. In the US, octane ratings in unleaded fuels can vary between 86-87 AKI (91-92 RON) for regular, through 89-90 AKI (94-95 RON) for mid-grade (European Premium), up to 90-94 AKI (95-99 RON) for premium (European Super).