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I am open to any suggestions to that can improve my performance/fuel economy on my 65 442, 400 stock engine. The only alterations that I have done is converted the points and condenser to the Igniter II and 45,000 volt coil from Pertronix. I have opened up the gap on the plugs to .035 based on this change with the pertronixs and at the advise from Pertronixs. How much of a change to the timing do you think that I can go to? In addition, fuel mixture should be changed on a vacuum gauge as well to its max setting?
I moved your post to its own thread instead of resurrecting an older thread.
A Pertronix points replacement kit is just that, it replaces the points and condenser. No timing changes are required and there is no real performance increase. Even with points a 2-4* advance increase is usually acceptable. Adjust your carb with a vacuum gauge to get the highest vacuum while keeping the amount of turns on the a/f mixture screws some what even.
I moved your post to its own thread instead of resurrecting an older thread.
A Pertronix points replacement kit is just that, it replaces the points and condenser. No timing changes are required and there is no real performance increase. Even with points a 2-4* advance increase is usually acceptable. Adjust your carb with a vacuum gauge to get the highest vacuum while keeping the amount of turns on the a/f mixture screws some what even.
I was under the impression that changing the points and condenser and coil would be a performance improvement. From what you are saying it is just a more stable and consistent improvement verses a performance improvement and pretty much timing settings stay the same. Being that said, what should I be looking for or seeing when adjusting the timing when it comes to initial and total timing? If pinging/detonation isn't a problem what do you believe the maximum setting on the initial timing be for max horsepower? if I have some of this terminology mixed up please feel free to correct anything here so I get this all straight. Thanks
I was under the impression that changing the points and condenser and coil would be a performance improvement.
The spark is created when a switch in the primary side of the wire to the coil is opened. This collapses the magnetic field in the coil and causes the secondary voltage to flow to the spark plug. The plugs neither know nor care if that switch is mechanical (points) or electronic. It's just an on-off switch. Yes there are high-end electronic ignition systems that do fancy things with extending the dwell time, etc. The generic point replacement systems like Pertronix and even the factory HEI distributor do NOT do this, they are simply an electronic switch. People who were not alive in the early 70s don't realize that HEI and the equivalent electronic ignition systems that the OEMs developed were NOT intended to be performance items. They were simply designed to allow cars to comply with the then-new EPA requirement that they had to meet emissions standards after 50,000 miles without any maintenance or tune up. Obviously that was impossible with points, so a non-contact electronic system was required. Th high voltage in the HEI coil is only there to allow the system to fire crusty, worn spark plugs after 50,000 miles.
The manufacturers of these electronic conversion kits want you to believe that they are the cure to all your ills and will turn your turd into a race car. That's called advertising. Of course, everyone who installs one is replacing worn, pitted points that were never maintained properly, so yeah, they see an improvement in spark stability and ease of starting. What they don't know (or won't admit) is that a fresh set of points would have done the same thing. Also, since they've just spent a bunch of time and money installing this conversion system, their highly-calibrated butt dyno obviously tells them that there's been a performance improvement (as it does any time you spend time and money to make a change). Ask yourself if you've ever seen a real, scientific, back-to-back test of properly maintained points vs. one of these electronic conversions.
There is no improvement. If you system lasts the only advantage you get is less maintenance since you don't have to change points anymore. I tried pertronix in my 54 Olds twice. The first time it left me on the side of the road and coming home on a flatbed. The second and third time I came limping home. Then I put a 56 distributor with the external adjustment points in my 54. I bought NOS DelcoRemy points and condenser off ebay and am very happy. I hope you have better luck with your pertronix.
There is no improvement. If you system lasts the only advantage you get is less maintenance since you don't have to change points anymore. I tried pertronix in my 54 Olds twice. The first time it left me on the side of the road and coming home on a flatbed. The second and third time I came limping home. Then I put a 56 distributor with the external adjustment points in my 54. I bought NOS DelcoRemy points and condenser off ebay and am very happy. I hope you have better luck with your pertronix.
It has been in use now for around 5000 miles so I am hoping that it is reliable but time will tell.
The spark is created when a switch in the primary side of the wire to the coil is opened. This collapses the magnetic field in the coil and causes the secondary voltage to flow to the spark plug. The plugs neither know nor care if that switch is mechanical (points) or electronic. It's just an on-off switch. Yes there are high-end electronic ignition systems that do fancy things with extending the dwell time, etc. The generic point replacement systems like Pertronix and even the factory HEI distributor do NOT do this, they are simply an electronic switch. People who were not alive in the early 70s don't realize that HEI and the equivalent electronic ignition systems that the OEMs developed were NOT intended to be performance items. They were simply designed to allow cars to comply with the then-new EPA requirement that they had to meet emissions standards after 50,000 miles without any maintenance or tune up. Obviously that was impossible with points, so a non-contact electronic system was required. Th high voltage in the HEI coil is only there to allow the system to fire crusty, worn spark plugs after 50,000 miles.
The manufacturers of these electronic conversion kits want you to believe that they are the cure to all your ills and will turn your turd into a race car. That's called advertising. Of course, everyone who installs one is replacing worn, pitted points that were never maintained properly, so yeah, they see an improvement in spark stability and ease of starting. What they don't know (or won't admit) is that a fresh set of points would have done the same thing. Also, since they've just spent a bunch of time and money installing this conversion system, their highly-calibrated butt dyno obviously tells them that there's been a performance improvement (as it does any time you spend time and money to make a change). Ask yourself if you've ever seen a real, scientific, back-to-back test of properly maintained points vs. one of these electronic conversions.
Ask yourself if you've ever seen a real, scientific, back-to-back test of properly maintained points vs. one of these electronic conversions.
Yeah, that would be enlightening, wouldn't it?
While not exactly a scientific study, back in the 80s I swapped a well-setup and maintained points system (Accel/Echlin cap, rotor, points, condenser, coil, plug wires) for a GM HEI (Accel cap, rotor, coil, plug wires) and saw absolutely no difference in engine operation: performance (0-60 mph), driveability, starting, etc. The distributor swap made no difference at all, other than I have not bought points and condenser since then.
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
Th high voltage in the HEI coil is only there to allow the system to fire crusty, worn spark plugs after 50,000 miles.
As Joe pointed out, a higher voltage coil will be able to create a spark with old, crusty plugs that should have been replaced many miles ago. Those "high voltage"coils that are advertised by the aftermarket companies are another marketing ploy to sell parts. Electricity will jump the gap in a spark plug at the point that the air resistance is overcome, which is usually around 12,000 Volts or so with spark plugs in good condition. It doesn't matter if there's a "50,000 Volt coil" or a 15,000 Volt coil, the spark will jump the gap at the same voltage level with both coils because the coil doesn't "push" electricity through the spark plugs.
Last edited by Fun71; June 25th, 2021 at 09:46 AM.
The biggest improvement with a stock HEI vs points is that with no other changes you get a better advance curve. With an HEI you can run a higher initial advance right out of the box with no other changes other than limiting the vacuum advance canister.
The biggest improvement with a stock HEI vs points is that with no other changes you get a better advance curve. With an HEI you can run a higher initial advance right out of the box with no other changes other than limiting the vacuum advance canister.
What does electronic vs points have to do with the advance curve? On a traditional GM distributor with mechanical and vacuum advance, the advance curve is unrelated to the switch that creates the spark. Yeah, you can get a new electronic distributor that allows you to alter the advance map remotely, and that's handy, but simply stabbing in a HEI in place of a points distributor does not do this. Most HEIs actually have a worse curve than the original.
My dislike for the Pertronix runs deep and long . In my opinion their modals are close to junk and unpredictable .Get a good one and they will run for years get a bad one and you will find yourself walking home at midnight from some where in the boondocks.
When is the last time you had a complete failure and couldn't get home with a set of burnt points. Generally you get plenty of notice that you should attend to your cars electrics before it will not run at all. Pertronix will just drop out and quit without any notice and it happens much more often than it should..... Just my experience....Tedd
When is the last time you had a complete failure and couldn't get home with a set of burnt points. Generally you get plenty of notice that you should attend to your cars electrics before it will not run at all. Pertronix will just drop out and quit without any notice and it happens much more often than it should..... Just my experience....Tedd
When the points in my '64 Cutlass let go, it ran fine until it didn't -- just as I was ascending a steep exit ramp in a parking garage. Blocked traffic and ugliness ensued, which is how I remember the incident so well even though it was about thirty years ago.
What does electronic vs points have to do with the advance curve? On a traditional GM distributor with mechanical and vacuum advance, the advance curve is unrelated to the switch that creates the spark. Yeah, you can get a new electronic distributor that allows you to alter the advance map remotely, and that's handy, but simply stabbing in a HEI in place of a points distributor does not do this. Most HEIs actually have a worse curve than the original.
Joe the total mechanical advance built into an HEI is shorter than a points distributor, therefore more initial advance is allowed. I agree with you on the electrical portion that a switch is a switch, but an HEI is much more than just a switch. I've played with both, however in the last 10 years have really started to appreciate the HEI.
Points distributors are the simplest and most reliable systems out there, but you can do a little more with electronics.
When I first swapped to the HEI distributor back in the 80s, I installed a Moroso HEI Advance Curve Kit as it gave the same amount of mechanical advance as the points setup (24º) so I was able to keep all of the timing settings that I had been using for years. Then around 10 years ago I read about folks increasing the initial to give a more idle vacuum, which I needed with the 217 cam, and I started experimenting with parts in an effort to raise the initial. After a lot of experimenting, I ended up using the original HEI center bar and weights as those parts gave just what I was looking for: 18º initial and 18º mechanical, for 36º total. Perfect for my application.
Joe the total mechanical advance built into an HEI is shorter than a points distributor, therefore more initial advance is allowed.
If you're playing with mechanical vs initial advance, then you already know that limiting the mechanical advance on any Delco distributor is trivially easy. HEI has nothing to do with that.
I agree with you on the electrical portion that a switch is a switch, but an HEI is much more than just a switch.
The standard four pin module? I don't think so. Can you get aftermarket modules that do more? Sure, but few people do more than stab in a Chinesium HEI clone. I have no problems with GM HEI distributors. I've never been stranded by one. My point is that people think that any electronic conversion is "an upgrade" over those prehistoric points. These same people carry spare modules, coils, etc, for their "upgraded" ignition. I've never had to carry spare points.
I do want to play with the CCC distributor and the seven pin module to use the ECU or a Megasquirt or some other control system to allow me to dial in the spark map. That's one of those things that's on the list. I'm surprised someone doesn't make a simple box to do that with a seven pin module now. It should cost a fraction of what the Progression Ignition distributors with the bluetooth link cost.
Some of the HEI info mention in this thread is incorrect.
The factory HEI will change dwell based on engine speed. You can see this with a old school dwell meter. I don’t recall the exact amounts, or the engine speed specifications, but the factory Delco modules are capable of coil charge time changes.
The China junk coils from the parts stores don’t bother with the coil charging dwell changes.
The aftermarket performance modules I would think would include the same characteristics of the Delco modules.
As others mentioned, assuming the timing curves are the same, there is ZERO performance differences with HEI (or any other electronic ignition) over points. Performance ignition points usually have heavier springs to delay point bounce (which WILL impact performance) but require more frequent adjustment.
In my 30 years of driving experience, and 40 years of playing with cars, I have experienced exactly ONE ignition module failure. Pretty sure the first year or 2 of HEI production did have some reliability problems, but Delco solved the problems very quickly. Unfortunately, the module failure myth won’t die.
Another myth is HEI won’t fire high RPM engines. I have a buddy with a 377 sbc who regularly spins that engine to almost 8000, it never misses a beat.
If you have ignition points, buy good quality parts. The cheap parts store stuff is made cheap, and lasts as long as you might expect cheap parts to last.
Cars with points were expected to be tuned up every 10k miles or so. For most people, that’s about once a year. Unless your using you classic car as a daily driver, it will take YEARS for a properly maintained, quality parts to require maintenance.
Which brings up the real reason for the development of HEI. People won’t maintain their cars, their idea of automotive maintenance is opening the fuel door. People were perfectly content to drive around with chokes half closed, points worn out, timing way off, who cares, the car still runs!!! Why spend money on Maintanance for a car that gets them where they need to go?
Once set, electronic ignition doesn’t change timing from wear. Other than timing chain stretch, the timing won’t move. That’s about the only advantage.
Pertronix and "upgrade" used in the same sentence makes me shake my head. Upgrade is an overused word to signify changing things. So, when I throw the paper core away and put up a fresh role of toilet paper, am I upgrading the toilet paper ?
Ign boxes are a waste of money as well. Most of the applications simply don’t make enough power to justify those high dollar, less than dependable boxes
I have an MSD Pro billet setup with a digital 6 ign box on my Dyno just because. I also routinely run stock replacement points style distributors on a lot of the resto builds that I do. If the points dist is in good condition it triggers the coil just as accurately as the MSD. Put a timing light on your points dist and run it up. Then do the same with a mag triggered MSD. You’ll be surprised.
I've even tested some of the Chinese MSD Knock offs and seen them retard timing in the upper ranges due to mag pickup delays.
Lots of Internet misinformation when it comes to ignition systems.
My 72 Cutlass was running fantastic since it's tuneup (all AC Delco with Duralast wires) last November. Then, it wasn't. It died pulling back into the garage after limping home with some stumbling and such. I fiddled with Fuel and Electronics and basically ran out of ability. Then, I towed it to my mechanic and, after running through a lot of things, we changed the points and the car ran again. I left while he continued to look for gremlins per se. He called later that day and said he installed a MSD (looked like a Pro Billet) distributor which I saw in his shop, changed the plugs and the car seems like a whole different car.
My question to the group is if there are any other suggestions to ensure longer term ignition (or otherwise) reliability?
Don't buy chinese parts. I go to ebay and find genuine NOS Delco Remy points and condensers that were made in the USA. I have found the chnese stuff don't last till the water gets hot.
Ask yourself if you've ever seen a real, scientific, back-to-back test of properly maintained points vs. one of these electronic conversions.
I watched a episode of Engine Masters that tested this exact situation. If I remember correctly they used a small block Ford, starting out with a worn out points distributor, the installed cheap points, good points, finally to electronic ignition.
They didn’t mess with different timing curves, just the same total timing. The results were kind of predictable, as long as the points were under control the power was basically the same. As soon as rpm increased enough for the ignition to suffer from point bounce power fell off. Obviously point bounce isn’t a concern with electronic ignition, but I don’t think there was much difference in total power between factory electronic and the highway dollar aftermarket ignition systems.
The one place aftermarket ignition shines is added features and flexibility. Rev limiters, start retard, nitrous retard, 2 or 3 step rev limiters, programmable timing curves, no big deal with aftermarket. Some of those features can be added to factory ignition systems, depends on how much you want to spend and how much wiring you want to add.
If all you need is reliable ignition, without the fancy features, it’s hard to beat well maintained OEM stuff. If your 10 miles northeast of nowhere, it’s nice to be able to walk into any decent parts store and get a replacement module or points. They may not be the highest quality stuff, but at least they will get you home.
Ask yourself if you've ever seen a real, scientific, back-to-back test of properly maintained points vs. one of these electronic conversions.
I watched a episode of Engine Masters that tested this exact situation. If I remember correctly they used a small block Ford, starting out with a worn out points distributor, the installed cheap points, good points, finally to electronic ignition.
They didn’t mess with different timing curves, just the same total timing. The results were kind of predictable, as long as the points were under control the power was basically the same. As soon as rpm increased enough for the ignition to suffer from point bounce power fell off. Obviously point bounce isn’t a concern with electronic ignition, but I don’t think there was much difference in total power between factory electronic and the highway dollar aftermarket ignition systems.
The one place aftermarket ignition shines is added features and flexibility. Rev limiters, start retard, nitrous retard, 2 or 3 step rev limiters, programmable timing curves, no big deal with aftermarket. Some of those features can be added to factory ignition systems, depends on how much you want to spend and how much wiring you want to add.
If all you need is reliable ignition, without the fancy features, it’s hard to beat well maintained OEM stuff. If your 10 miles northeast of nowhere, it’s nice to be able to walk into any decent parts store and get a replacement module or points. They may not be the highest quality stuff, but at least they will get you home.
Here is a screen shot of the results from Engine Masters. This was the final comparison of the brand new "cheap" points ignition system versus the MSD 6AL. The MSD ignition makes power everywhere even with the same timing settings, but this does not necessarily contradict Joe's point that switching from a GOOD points system to a regular HEI system would really make much difference.
Just for reference, the MSD 6AL made about 20 lb-ft of torque, but as a percentage, it was around 3% more. The big difference was as you said in the high RPM range when the points started floating.
Don't buy chinese parts. I go to ebay and find genuine NOS Delco Remy points and condensers that were made in the USA. I have found the chnese stuff don't last till the water gets hot.
X2.... I will not buy new points. I am not aware of a single brand that is worth a crap. My 4 speed Jetfire I had a receipt in the glovebox where they put new points in it in 1970 and the car only got 4000 miles after that till it was parked in 1974. I just cleaned them and reused them and runs like a top.
Here is a screen shot of the results from Engine Masters. This was the final comparison of the brand new "cheap" points ignition system versus the MSD 6AL. The MSD ignition makes power everywhere even with the same timing settings, but this does not necessarily contradict Joe's point that switching from a GOOD points system to a regular HEI system would really make much difference.
Just for reference, the MSD 6AL made about 20 lb-ft of torque, but as a percentage, it was around 3% more. The big difference was as you said in the high RPM range when the points started floating.
I have slept since I saw that episode, I'm going to have to find it and rewatch it. I thought the curves were basically the same until point bounce became a problem. Obviously, I was wrong.
June 24th, 2021, 06:14 AM
