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I've wanted to keep this car as original as possible, but hot restarts seem to be annoying where you begin to wonder if the engine will start but always does.
Put a new Interstate 650 cca batery in and have #2 AWG cables but this problem persists.
Tempted to go to a new smaller permanent magnet high reduction starter and the current wired field starter is less than an inch from the exhaust.
I've wanted to keep this car as original as possible, but hot restarts seem to be annoying where you begin to wonder if the engine will start but always does.
Put a new Interstate 650 cca batery in and have #2 AWG cables but this problem persists.
Tempted to go to a new smaller permanent magnet high reduction starter and the current wired field starter is less than an inch from the exhaust.
Any advice is appreciated.
If you search on the site, there is a lot of posts on this subject. Make sure your starter is well grounded. Some years came with a bracket attached to the starter that provided additional grounding. The mini starters do work well and are a bit lighter.
I've wanted to keep this car as original as possible, but hot restarts seem to be annoying where you begin to wonder if the engine will start but always does.
Put a new Interstate 650 cca batery in and have #2 AWG cables but this problem persists.
Tempted to go to a new smaller permanent magnet high reduction starter and the current wired field starter is less than an inch from the exhaust.
Any advice is appreciated.
Dunno your application, but when I swapped the starter in my '72 U code Supreme, I wrapped this around it.
I think the main issue is reduced current flow through the solenoid when the starter is hot. Ensuring good grounds is essential. On the positive side, the wiring from the battery, switch, to the S terminal on the solenoid needs to have as low resistance as possible so sufficient current can flow to properly magnetize the solenoid. Corrosion or poor contact anywhere along that wiring path will reduce the available current.
Measure the battery voltage, then measure battery voltage while cranking across the battery. Measure it at the battery cable where it attaches to the solenoid while cranking. Measure it while cranking at the tab on the starter motor that connects to the solenoid.
Use jumper cables as an extra added test jumper from the battery to the block.
Is the current starter definitely a high torque model?
Ok well done some searchin and readin, and lets review.
Picture 1 illustrates pretty much a high exhaust heat condition with wire insulation melted or dry rotted to bare wire..
This was originally taken with the 350 still in the car, the insulation was fried and solenoid cooked to brittle.
Pic 2
So not being an idiot I took the starter apart to check its condition finding the armature bright and brushes looking near new despite the external condition.
I checked the bushings which wer lubricated andnot worn.
I put a new Standard Products relay on, bench tested it and installed it complete with the rear grounding strap much to my frustration getting that on.
So I guess my next question is how a full sized starter this close to an exhaust pipe NOT be effected by heat.
Pic 3
A heat shield is out of the question given the proximity and clearance to the pipe.
FWIW I had the same issue even with a new Powermaster OEM style starter - finally swapped out to a RobbMc ministarter and problem solved. Good clearance and no heat soak, a great thing especially here in FL...
My brother had 'starter heat soak-issues' with his 74 plymouth scamp with a mopar 408 stroker SB and TTI headers. The battery in the trunk, easy starting with cold engine, but when hot, the car was nearly impossible to start.
He tried every sort of heat shielding the starter and wrapping headers, tried different mini starters, from MSD to very cheap ones, nothing worked.
Then, put the battery back in the engine bay, made sure everything is grounded well, no hot starting issues since then.
So, i guess Fun71 is right, it must have something to do with higher resistance when the starters are hot/heat soaked, so, the shorter the wires are, the better.
Certainly putting a battery farther away will introuduce current loss especially if insufficient wire gauge is used.
I put in the biggest 650 cca group 24 battery I could get with a black top in this car with #2 cables 3' from the starter.
Battery checks out with a Midtronics tester at 650 and carbon pile load tester at the battery and pos to engine block.
Impossible to get the load tester to the + terminal on the starter though.
Had to put the wires on before bolt up because its so tight.
I used swedged and shrunk termals on both ends.
I see some of these restos and all the time and money that goes in and see these battery cable ends with the strap over the stripped cable and cringe.
For sure heat will change resistance, I agree.
Thought it might be a carb heat soak possibly boiling and causing a flood start with prolongs cranking.
The crossover heat was for sure high, but blocking the crossover and using a Performer 455 aluminum intake made no difference as did changing the carb to an Edlebrock AVS.
Sometimes when hot it lights up right away, sometimes it drags on making you wonder if it will start.
This is what has me considering a permanent magnet reduction starter, but I want to be sure and would rather have the Delco in there.
Base timing is at 10 degrees which will also effect hot starts.
This will restart instantly when hot, but after 15 minutes gets difficult.
A full throttle flood clear start does nothing.
Leave the pedal alone and crank it and it lights after a 10 second crank.
Your installation is completely normal. It could be the starter itself. Most modern rebuilds are mediocre at best. You need to find a good rebuilder that knows how to properly test the unit.
Had the same problem, explored the same solutions as you, Rick. Finally gave up and went with a Powermaster 9510 ('69 4-4-2 G-Block). Problem solved -- it cranks like crazy now under any conditions. I've kept the original for a future rebuild should I or a subsequent owner wish to return the car to 100% stock condition.
Technically speaking I have fixed many starters over the years.
As for condition as shown prior, and bushing wear causing dragging of the armature or pinion alignment, its damned near perfect.
By the date code I'd say its original 8 G 2 or June 2, 1968.
The only thing I don't have is a growler to check the armature windings.
Never been a parts changer, but this one has me and it wasn't a problem spinning the 350 that was in the car when I got it.
The 350 had the original style exhaust system and manifolds, not the 2.5" with the much larger 400 manifolds.
I did have to shim the starter also, so that left me wondering also.
Straight up it cranked really hard before shims then it worked well.
Interesting find googling the starter frame number brought me back here.
It would appear that this starter is for a 350 low compression engine.
Gotta make a difference if numbers are this specific.
Again, this is a 69 442 with a 400. https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums.../#&gid=1&pid=5
I've wanted to keep this car as original as possible, but hot restarts seem to be annoying where you begin to wonder if the engine will start...
Rick,
You've gotten a load of wonderful advice that thoroughly addresses correcting the common reasons for cranking problems.
Now you need to sort through those to select the actions that will cure your specific problem.
But first, categorize the hot starting problem to choose which actions apply, e.g.,
Does your engine crank very slowly?
When you turn the key do you hear nothing, hear just a click, or experience an instant of cranking that immediately stops?
Slow cranking only when hot is likely a starter problem. To keep the car original, you will need to take the starter (or a spare) to a local auto electric company that rewinds starters. Ask for an ultra-high torque rewind.
For example, look in the 1970 Chassis Service Manual on page 12-31 at Fig. 12-53. This is how the rewinder will arrange your starter windings. This winding gives your starter sufficient extra power that heat will not seem to affect it.
No crank only when hot is a starter solenoid problem, as Kenneth indicated. The purple wire circuit that activates the solenoid is LONG and it needs to deliver 50 amps. But it goes through many switches and bulkhead connectors. In an old car these have accumulated corrosion and wear that adds to their resistance. Temperature alone increases wire resistance by 20% when going from 70° to 170°.
The resistance of the solenoid itself can increase by 30% when going from 70° to 220°.
These factors greatly reduce the voltage and current that gives the energy to move the solenoid. The result is a solenoid that does not activate properly when hot.
An easy solution is to install a Ford solenoid on the engine side of the bulkhead (if you take out the passenger side wheel-well to install it, you can easily access a location that will not be seen). There is no need to buy a kit, just buy the solenoid. Wire it to handle only the solenoid circuit. Don't use it to supply the starter's main 12 V connection as many instructions say to do.
Wire the solenoid's activation terminal (small) with the existing purple wire. Wire its main supply terminal (large) with a 12 ga red directly from the horn relay. Wire 12 ga from the other main supply terminal to the solenoid (where the purple wire formerly connected). This delivers battery voltage to the solenoid regardless of temperature or degraded state of the purple wire circuit.
I really appreciate all who took the time to think tank and post on my problem here.
@Gary, I've seen the master/slave solenoid wiring on boats.
The master primary is 14 and its secondary is 10awg to the primary on the starter (slave).
The winding you mention is dinging the bell especially where I found a specific frame number for a 69 4000 HC motor.
This makes the most sence to me as I believed the correct starter was in this engine which its not.
I'm not sure if its worth rewinding this current one as a high torque or hunt down the covvect 1108348 starter.
Logic is telling me that there is a specific starter for a specific reason.
Even the reman number is different naturally.
Probably not worth trying to rewind as a high torque. To do that you would need an armature and fields as well as field pole shoes. The high torque armature has 23 copper bars where the brushes ride and your lower torque armature has 27 bars. the high torque armature is also wider and won't fit in your case when the low torque fields and pole shoes are in there. The 349 fields have 1 shunt winding and the 348 has 2 shunt windings. You may try to find another starter with the correct armature and fields, but a lot of starters won't have the threaded hole on the side of the field case if you may need that. If you take it to a rebuilder be sure to ask for a solenoid with a high temp cap to prevent the toasted marshmallow look you had on your old one. Also ask for the shorter solenoid spring. There are 3 spring sizes. You need the one in the middle length. The 349 starter you have definatley doesn't have enough *** for your application. If you decide to try making your starter into the correct high torque yourself, be sure you put the field pole shoes in correctly. They are direction specific. If you want to give it a shot, I can supply you with the correct parts.
My car turned over quickly cold, but as soon as it was a little warm became slow & hung up at TDC. Had a new starter installed when the trans was rebuilt, Same exact thing. Finally solved it by turning the distributor back about 2 degrees. Car runs great now. Double check timing set. Make sure it's not too advanced.
Last edited by Falkon; December 12th, 2022 at 03:08 PM.
Thank you for checking in on this, I noted your mention on a Pontiac page.
Now the dots are finally connecting on this problem, I've been losing my mind.
I have a local shop in the city here that has been around for ever I plan on calling this AM.
My concern is that with a larger case it will be even closer to the pipe however.
As it is, I have to drop the pipe just to access the starter.
@Ken, thanks for thoughts also, this car starts cold in a split second.
You also mentioned the solenoid which Stellar confirms there are 3 springs for which I never knew, so that could be part of this puzzle also.
An immediate restart is also ok.
But when it sits for 10-15 minutes, it labors through a 10 second start getting slower and slower but does eventually start but leaving you wondering.
Ive looked through the different remans on Rock zooming in on the case numbers, none of which match the original designated starter, and about 50% of them have the rear strap hole in the case.
I don't want to make a mistake on this, but if this DR 43-mx starter is not available or exceeding the cost on building one up, I may put in a RobbMc.
If I am going to go to the trouble of building one it would have to be the numbers matching corect case though.
The car is in paint till the spring, so there is plenty of time on this.
Do a simple voltage drop test. Put the positive probe of your meter on the starter battery cable stud. Put the negative probe of the meter on the POSITIVE post of the battery. Crank the engine, preferably when hot. Whatever the meter reads is how much voltage is lost in that wire. If it’s more than a few tenths of a volt, you either have poor connections, or the cable is undersized.
You can do the same on the negative cable. Put the negative meter probe on the stater case, put the positive meter probe on the negative battery cable.
If you search on the site, there is a lot of posts on this subject. Make sure your starter is well grounded. Some years came with a bracket attached to the starter that provided additional grounding. The mini starters do work well and are a bit lighter.
I put a zero gauge ground on the 67 that I could not barely see a gap between the GM 4 field starter and a header tube worked for me. Just a thought, when you put things back together. Just for giggles I used a zero gauge ground on the 64 F-85 build even with a mini starter. application. No issues sir in Texas summers.
The starter cases are the same size. It is the innards that are different. The high torque field leads will exit the field case in a different place. It will be a little closer to the end of the case. A good rebuilder should be able to do it for you. Correct delco field number is D4221. There are other high torque fields that would probably work well for you, but the D4221 is the correct field assembly. It is the 2 series and 2 shunt type fields. If you use other high torque fields, they will be under the threaded hole on the side of the case and if you put a bolt in there deeper than the thickness of the field case, you could ground out the new fields. If you find a starter with the correct number, be sure to check for this as the fields may have been changed in the past. Thanks for the thumbs up on the PY forum. If you have some time to waste search (starter continues to run) on the PY forum. Not related to your problem, but you may find some useful starter info there. If you ever want a starter or alternator restored, I do that. If you take it to a local rebuilder you may want to mention the D4221 field number. If he is a quality rebuilder he will know what it is and what to do.
I called a shop I've used for decades nereby this AM. https://lhboulanger.com/ 4.9 stars Ext. 1959
Said I wanted to speak to somebody intimately familiar with older Delco starters and he laughed...
I explained in detail what was happening and what was needed based on Stellar's details and he knew exactly what I was needing and is building one now.
He had a new non staggered nose in stock.
For sure I will mention the D4221 field in the AM.
About the rear strap...not an argument but personal observations of many marine engines going back to the 70's..
This is the only V8 I've ever seen use a non staggered bolt pattern and the only one seen as a required ground path.
These side by side bolt patterns are usually in 4 and 6 cylinder engines.
Seen some V8 blocks drilled and tapped with 3 holes to accept either though so some probably did back in the day.
I have a feeling that strap is there to support the torque twist of the starter to keep the nose from breaking or losening.
Never seen a V8 starter regardless of HP with one on it nor a grounding issue because it wasn't there and every marine block mounted V8 starter was a staggered bolt pattern and all Chevrolets.
Cussed that thing out over and over putting that starter in last time lol.
I put the stock brace/ground/heat shield on a 455 with dual exhaust this summer, in this thread. I also replaced the starter and had it wired for "supertorque" coil.
I have a feeling that strap is there to support the torque twist of the starter to keep the nose from breaking or losening.
That may well be the design objective. I have only my personal experience with the one engine, and it has been that I removed that brace in around 1982 and have not had any issues with loosening or breakage. Again, that's just one data point.
@Ken, my point was imho, the brace is there for support, not a ground path.
Yours is a 350 too correct?
@ Koda, wow thats quite a thread you got there.
Just talked to the builder and he had a case without the brace hole, finding one with it.
I'd pass on it, but for sure want this to be the last time I have to put one in there.
There is a reason for everything, and knowing the smaller inline engines use a side by side bolt pattern, I feel its the reason.
1969 may predate the staggered block bolt pattern in Chevrolets as well.
As I said before I've seen v8 blocks drilled and tapped for side by side as well as staggered bolt patterns (3 mounting holes).
This may have been a running change for Chevrolet and the Olds was in that vintage never seeing the change which would mean a different block as there is no material for a staggered pattern present.
I had a similar issue. My car went through a complete restoration - top to bottom. After going for a cruise not too long after getting her back on the road the car stalled. I tried to restart but she would only crank slowly. After waiting 30 minutes she started right up. I checked the battery, alternator etc. and realized the idle was too low at 650 rpm. I adjusted to 750 rpm. Problem solved ? Nope.
This happened a few more times. The engine would slowly crank but would not turn over. Wait 30 minutes and she would start right up. The engine was rebuilt to near stock except for lower compression to 9.5 and hardened valve seats. Stock exhaust, stock mufflers. Same air in tires from November ‘69 build date. I took the alternator back to the old timer who rebuilt it and it tested fine. I actually felt bad - like I was questioning his work. I thought it could be heat soak, ground issue, battery issue, alternator issue, The Chief putting a hex or an Act of God.
I changed to battery to a 700/850 flat top. I wanted to stay with the retro cover.
I took the starter out. I had bought the starter from a guy on EBay who had a Delco date code correct High Torque Starter for my ‘70 W-30. In his ad he claims that the starter is completely gone through and a new solenoid added. It is then prepped and painted. I noticed the solenoid was a not made in the USA model. Thinking it might be the solenoid I searched high and low and found a correct NOS solenoid and replaced the foreign made junk. Problem solved ? Nope.
I checked every lead, ground and connection. Nothing lose. All my wires are new. A friend had a recently rebuilt starter from his ‘71 442 lying on his shelf. An old timer from a small shop in Pennsylvania who has been in the business for 60 years rebuilt his unit. His business only deals with starters and solenoids. Put the ‘71 starter in my car. Problem solved ? Hell yeah. The starter sounds like one of those exotic ones that you would find in a Ferrari. Obviously a bad starter was the issue all along. The guy on EBay apparently did a half *** job and did not restore the starter internals with high quality replacement parts. No pride in his work and doesn’t give a ****.
Last edited by Bigmikey65; January 20th, 2023 at 07:51 AM.
Post 19 outlines the problem with the starter differences required for this engine needing more torque when heat is present.
I am having one built, but the case with the brace hole is making that a problem.
Once the car is done with paint and back here, the current starter will come out to make sure the brace hole is in the right place to fit properly.
I remember reading a post stating that these engines didn't have this problem but now believe thats true as long as the right starter is installed.
It now seems like a rather common problem by all that posted on this.
If necessary, your rebuilder can probably drill and tap a hole in the field case for you unless he is using a later style field case. You can only drill and tap the early style case. The later style field case configuration will not allow the hole needed.
December 8th, 2022, 03:13 PM
