olds455

My new 455 and trans rebuild needs a doctor. The new 455 with Btr custom solid roller and fully ported ebrocks spun a bearing(I think). After it's inital run it and tuning I put about 2hrs run time and 50 to 100 miles on it. Oil pressure had always been good, 40 to 60 and about 20+ at hot idle. It never got hotter than 200deg and I've got that straighten out. Yesterday I took it for it's first wot shift test and it performed perfectly. Shifts were at 5700 and the engine never slowed down. When I got home the oil pressure was lower than it had been. I thought it was just too hot. This morning I fired the car up and the oil pressure was 40+ so I drove it to work. On the way home from work today, the pressure was good until the engine got to 170deg. The temp never got hotter but the idle oil pressure was 18 in park but about 10 in gear. It would also drop below 10 as the engine rumbled. The pressure insantly rises when excellerating but never went above 40. I got the car home and put the front on ramps and when reving it has a knock. It wasn't there yesterday that I know of. It's definatly from the bottom end. I pulled the dip stick and wiped the oil on a clean paper towel, there was very fine, but just a few prices of glitter. So I'm going to open the filter and probably drop the pan.

So other than the obvious, what will most Likely be in the filter?

When rod bearings spin does one always end up under the other?

If anyone has any thoughts or tips, please feel free to share them. Pics to follow

442scotty

Why postpone the inevitable ...Im gonna say pull her out and go through the whole thing...bring out the wallet

olds425

I feel for you. That would make me sick. Good luck

J-(Chicago)

Cleanliness is godliness when it comes to engine assembly. If the block was dirty, there will be all kinds of carbon chunks in the oil filter after a new build.

I have only spun a rod bearing that stayed inside the rod, once. and They did go underneath each other. The engine locked up during the cruise down the return road. I let my buddy drive the car, and he apparently revved it to the moon. Said he didn't, but....ya know. Haha.
I had pulled the limiter off because it was popping in 2nd gear around 4200 that day, module went bad.

What rods and pistons did you use?

citcapp

Bad news, but I agree pull the engine, you'll have to in any case. No use making it any worse then it is. Let us know what happened.

olds455

I hope get the pan of tomorrow and see whats there as well as the filter. I know it will have to be recleaned and assembled. It has the new cp bullet pistons and cat rods. As for the clearances, the crank was ground to BTR specs but they of course put it on the high side. I believe the rods were .0030 to .0035 but ill have to check my notes. Thanks

Blk71SX

dude, it's not gonna heal itself. so, unless you have access to a magic wand.......

bearings can stack or just spin in the rod.

507OLDS

Something was tight,& is eating itself.That is also why the was a heat issue.Too much friction somewhere.

Texas Jim

The reason I plasti-gauge everything as I get it back together, why take a chance, and another reason I bolt my own **** together. When something fails, you'll be the one to UN-bolt everything and find the problem, even if someone else bolts together the bottom end, and doesn't check clearances as they do so.

Really sorry that you're in this position.

olds455

Well # 6 was spun. the oil drained pretty clean but the filter was loaded with metal. I checked my specs and maybe this was an issue. I have two different numbers from the shops Ive delt with. The crank was ground by the one shop in town they all send there work too. The one shop ive sent my work to for years got these numbers.
Mains- #1 2.9884 #2 2.9884 #3 2.9881 #4 2.9884 #5 2.9884
rods- 1 and 2 2.4884
3 and 4 2.4884 thru 2.4887
5 and 6 2.4884 thru 2.4886
7 and 8 2.4884
when they torqued a rod with bearing they got 2.4914, sutract 2.4884 and get .0030
When I asked what to do to get my requested clearance I got a bunch of attitude was told i was an idiot for listing to some one on the internet. It went far enought for me to gather my stuff and go to another shop. When I got to the next shop I told them what I wanted and if they couldnt handle id go else where. 2 days later they called and said to pick up my stuff as they werent going to work on it either. So I went 300 miles to a recommened guy to finish my work. He did what I wanted, but when I picked up my stuff i asked if he measured every thing, he had forgot to get then all.I had to catch a plane with my stuff so I left. He measured mains-# 1 2.9896 #2 2.9892 #3 2.9892 #4 2.989 #5 2.989
the block mains were #1 3.189 #2 3.189 #3 3.1885 #4 3.189 #5 3.1885
When I asked about the rods he said they were in spec and were new so he didnt right them down. I guess I need to have them all remeasured and verified before I comence with going forward. the crank turned .010. It may or may not clean up with .020 under. That #6 thinned the bearing pretty good.
Im real fed up with the compedence and attitude of shops around town. Ive ran out of places to take this in Anchorage.

So what do i need to get this to hold together? I dont think i overpowered it. With the exception of the turned crank every thing was new. rod side clearance was .016,.016,.016 and .018. The heads are fully ported edlebrocks with a solid roller 244,248dur and 618, 573 lift. I dont think it over revved, but it may have hit 6000.

Also, what does normal wear look like on a roller cam and lifters? there is some marks on a couple lobes but nothing deep or grooving? I have pics if needed.

What do you guys think?
BTW, no magic wand here. I work for my money and do everthing i can myself. I also dont blame anyone for it breaking. I do expect to get the proper service ive payed for. Thanks

Red Delta

Damn. That would have brought me to tears. I hope it all works out.

olds455

Thanks, I damn sure not putting a chevy in it. Olds or nothing.

Red Delta

Well, that goes without saying (especially around here).

64Rocket

There are a couple of others OLDS guys in Alaska. It seams to me one was in Fairbanks. Do a search and check it out.

Gene

442scotty

I feel your pain...with my first motor I talked to a lot of techs and racing guys and got referred to a shop in town...had them do the motor...It sat for a few months while I did the rest of the car and when I fired it up it was running way too hot...

To make a long story short they did a lousy job...made it too tight, didnt size the rods, didnt torque the ARP bolts properly etc etc...and to make things worse, when I went to see them they had closed their automotive section down to do heavy duty and diesel only...Cost me a lot...

My second motor I went through the whole process again...found a shop that had done a few Olds before ....Cost me a little more and they let me drop in to watch any time...Turned out awesome..But I was real nervous for a long time...

You just never know anymore who is good and who is bad....With staff changes etc,,,there is no pride in excellance anymore...Hard to find someone who cares and knows what they are doing...

Texas Jim

This time around, check all your own clearances and bolt the engine together yourself. It's not difficult and taking your time it turns out to be fool-proof. The only Ford motor I ever built, in '94-'95, I had the cylinders off-set bored by an old machinist who did fantastic work f/ me since '82. I took my time, had other things going on too, but took alot of extra care bolting this engine together; ie: had to file head gasket bolt holes to line gasket up perfectly w/ cylinder due to the off-set cylinders. This guy had proven the off-set to run cooler and smoother and about 30% more efficient due to it lessening up the rod angle on the up stroke. Although Bill had been off-setting blocks f/ decades, I never had it done before. The engine took me about 4 months to do. When I told Bill that I was still working on the engine after 3 months, he told me that to double check everything is to be sure, and that he never bolts anything together unless he's checked everything twice. In all the years I knew him, and the hundreds of engines he built and raced/had raced, I never saw one come apart due to the building of it. And he had a log book of every engine he built and follow-ups on the engine's performance/outcome f/ one year. The guy was incredible. When I got that engine running, he told me that I could tell anyone that he did the machine work on it, which meant, I did a good job. One guy who had built an 8 cylinder Pinto, bolted Bill's work together, didn't adjust the valves correctly, and the car ran so bad at the track, that Bill told him never to mention his name and the car in the same sentence and never did any work f/ the guy or anyone he associated w/again. Although I lost the '66 T-bird w/ that engine in a split up w/ my lady, the engine is still running great to this day. A long story, but the lesson is to take your time and check everything twice, that way there's no mysteries at the outcome.
You'll have to check everything to see that the metal did no damage while going through the system in the engine. If the jourmal on the crank can't be cleaned up, I'm sure another crank will be needed, and if the rod is wrecked, another rod. Those guys who got the *** at you at that machine shop should be hung by the *****. IMO, anyone who can't explain themselves fully and properly to do w/ the work that they're supposed to be professionals at, have no business in that trade. Sounds like you caught the guy in a screw-up and possibly the next guy didn't want to un-**** someone else's work, or he was an ******* too.
I wish you the best of luck w/ the re-build, and I'm real sorry that this **** happened. Just do your own bolting up from now on, and if you have a clearance problem, you'll see it f/ yourself and you won't have to take anyone's word f/ it. Sincerely, Jimmy.

olds455

Thanks, I figured I'd have to take the crank and rods to have them cheacked out but I don't know where they are going to go. The final shop they were finished at was in Fairbanks ak. He was recommended as the best balance guy in the state. So I'm about to have to buy and learn some mic equipment but it still doesn't help the machine work. I could ship most of this out and it wouldn't cost much until I needed sent back.

MN71W30

It's a set back but it's part of the game, don't let it get you down. I paid a professional to build a BBC and it lasted 5 minutes. The guy installed a broken piston, had way too much piston to wall clearance, Drilled into the water jackets on my heads when installing seats and never told me until it came time to pay the bill, I could go on and on.
The reason for my post is to encourage you to do yoour own work as stated before. Everyone screws up now and then. These setbacks can motivate us to learn new skills. We have assembled several motors since my big setback and there all doing just fine except for the one we reassembled with excessive piston to wall clearance, it has piston slap on a cold start up.
Hang in there.

stevengerard

I can't help with the engine info but doesn't mean I don't feel for you. I wish I had the ability and the time to do work on my own car. When I was younger I did paint my own cars and rebuilt a motor in a Buick Wildcat that is still running 25 years later (of course I had lots of help from my mechanic cousin).

I'm responding only to encourage you to realize many of us are in that same boat, my wife just told me I go to bed mad and I wake up mad because the body shop my car is at is ripping me off and I know it - and so do they. It is easy for people to say "do it yourself" but with children, work and life in general not all of us have the time or I as I would say, it is just less of a priority for me to work on the car myself. I brought my car to a shop to get it done right and faster than I could have done it, just like you were probably thinking. Unfortunately even in this economy very few companies put the customer first. Keep plugging away and this time you will know what to ask before hand and how to get documentation on what the shop does so that your next build is correct.

Texas Jim

The last two posts make alot of sense. IMO it's better to do your own bolting up, and then there are times when time becomes more valuable than money spent. The old Texas saying: I'll either run out of money (whiskey) or run out of time. Part of life, I guess, f/ everyone at one time or another. So take your time doing it, if at all possible. And you'll save money on the build doing that share of the work. I ran a marathon a year until, in '99, my wife told me that I was stealing too much time from the family getting in my miles everyday. So I packed the long distance in and cut way back on miles. It all depends on your priorities. My idea at this age is family FIRST and ALWAYS, but if you can sneak in an engine alittle at a time, go f/ it. Good Luck.

stevengerard

Love the first quote - how true. I used to ride my bike 20 - 60 miles a day with races or centuries on the weekend - until I had kids, now I'm lucky to do 20 miles in a week. I don't like when people say 'how much is your time worth, don't matter how much its worth if you don't have the money to pay someone but as you mention sometimes hiring someone makes the most sense.

olds455

Well, I dropped the crank and rods off to the shop who turned the crank. All there supposed to do is check current specs and clearances. After that some decisions have to be made. The one rod most likely needs resizing but I'll know more in a day or two. Thanks everyone for the encouragement. Joe

dc2x4drvr

I'm sorry, can't find your post on what brand of rods you're using...side clearances might be a little tight.

olds455

Just a set of cat h beam rods

tim72

Thanks! You are not the only one who wakes up mad! Trust these days for a job well done may be harder to come by. Not all are bad shops though.

olds455

Well, the crank will need 20u mains and 30u rods. its its on its last leg. i called BTR and ordered parts. Ill drop the block and parts off next week and my clearances will be met. I will then plasti-gauge upon assembly to check it again. I wish i new why it spun but i guess things happen. thanks for the encouragement. Joe

67 Cutlass Freak

Joe at least you've chosen the best with Bill. He really knows his Olds sh*t. You might want to invest in some precision tools to check all the measurements yourself. Not a lot of people use plasti-gauge anymore. I have found it useful to juggle bearing shells for the best fit. The other thing you might want to look into is the setup to measure rod or main bolt stretch. Most of the best engine builders no longer use a torque wrench in assembly.

Texas Jim

Only my opinion ofcourse, but I'll bet that plasti-gauge would have prevented that spun bearing. That thing was too tight and the plasti-gauge would have caught that. You can build a good bottom end and check everything properly w/o a million dollars worth of tools. Ofcourse you can go nuts checking things, but to check the rod and mains w/ plasti-gauge and the side of the rods w/ a feeler gauge, use new ARPs when you bolt up a new engine like that. And if the machinist is any good at all, you should be in good shape. Ofcourse there are alot of high tech ways to go about an engine build, especially now days, but using your head, taking your time and the old methods should get you there. I'd rather go w/ the basic tools and methods than have some dead beat give me his word and I end up spinning a bearing like Olds455 did.

70 cutlass s

Plasti-gauge is the easiest and cheapest way to check bearing clearances.

Any more I replace main, rod, and head bolts you have to remember with these Olds engine most of them are around 40 years old.

Not using a torque wrench that's a new one on me. I have two one for inch pounds and one for foot pounds. You can't work on anything newer without both. Not using one when building an engine is asking for trouble.

Texas Jim

I ALWAYS use a torque wrench and make sure that they're accurate, having them checked regularly and keeping them in a well padded lock-box. That's another MUST IMO to do w/ clearances.

olds455

Well, I have all the parts back and cleaned. I've cleaned everything twice, dried and put into ziplock bags(if they fit). The crank was reground to BTR specs and those journal numbers were written down for me. They are dead on or within .0001. The crank and block will egt another cleaning tomorrow as the assembly will begin after that. All journals will be plastigauged. The one rod was resized and everything looks ready to go. Other than acually measuring this myself I can't think of anything stopping the build.

I have some help tomorrow and hope to have the shortblock done and ready to paint. We'll see how things go. I figure 5-6 hours and I'll be about fed up with it. I just need the heads cleaned up and the time to finish her up. Thanks to all. I'll get pics posted of the build. Joe

toro455

Olds455 - I lived in Anchorage 1971-82. Love it up there ! Good luck on your build !

Texas Jim

Hope you used your plasti-gauge to check everything before bolting up. Although some guys on here think it's an out-dated tool, it will tell you if anything is too tight and keep you from starting an "accident waiting to happen." Good Luck. Glad you're back on the horse.

olds455

Well, Ive gotten about no were today. Ill tell you that plastigauge just saved my ***! The mains were between .0030 and .0040, closer to .0040. however the rods were another issue. I tried number cylinder 1 and 2 and was getting closer to .0020. so i tried those same pistons in slot 5 and 6. I got the same on that journal as well. So i called the man who turned the crank. He said bring them back down. Once i got there i had him measure the torqued rod with bearing, once subtracted the journal and guess what, .0021! Im sure I said to measure the rods. Hell, the very note with Bills journal specs even said rods .0035 to .0040. Oh sure there on the tight side of spec, almost out of spec. This might explain why said rod was too damn tight and spun. So its back to waiting. In the mean time I found a damaged main bearing, probably dropped it but I dont know. Not sure if its usable so ill get a pic posted.

firefrost gold

It was just in hot rod or high performance chevy that the break away torque wrench is no longer the tool of choice either the new tone type is preferred or a torque to yield
were you put a dial indicator on the stud and watch to see the amount of stretch the fastener does per speck . On v 8 tv BTR's bill is putting a 350 bottom end together some tips on there . Three vids in all that I saw Good Luck

olds455

Ive seen those videos and purchased the cd. Bill has told me the same stuff he's showing on the video. here are the bearing pics, i must have missed some stuff in the oil holes. the other pics im not sure about. I was pulling the caps off with the studs in. maybe thats what caused it. its time for another set.

olds455

Well I found out what caused the damage to the main bearings. It was a bunch of debris in the crank oil holes. I'll get a pic up of what I got out of them. The bearings cleaned up Well and were usable.so they went in. I cleaned the crank 3 times and brushed the holes well. The crank nstalled with no issues this time.

As for the rods, I platigauged all 8 and they were all between about .0030 to .0035. Not the .0035 to .0040. I put it together anyway. Summer is short and if it doesn't last longer this time then it's done fo the year. I've talked with Btr several times on this whole engine and he doesn't believe they're grinding this crank to the right spec. Hell, I'm even going to buy some micrometers just to play with because I don't know what this engine will do. I do plan on talking to the shop on Tuesday and chew some ***. I will never have any work done there again. All crank and rod work will be sent out, Btr will recieve it. Sorry for the rant. It needs a timing cover, oil pan install, then paint. Heads, valvetrain and intake. Then she'll be ready to put in the car. Thanks every one, happy 4th of July.

cutlassefi

Glad you got to the root of your problem, good luck.

Plastigage was mentioned here and on your other post. I'm still waiting for Norm to tell us how to check main bore alignment reliably with just Plastigage. He said it could be done. I for one would like to know how, but have yet to hear how to do it. Anything Norm?

http://btrperformance.com/phpbb/view...=2422&start=20

cutlassefi

Norm, still awaiting your answer on the Plastigage and it's uses checking the alignment of the main bearing saddles. I can't find the directions you spoke of anywhere. Please tell me now to do what you mentioned. If you can't then I will have to assume that you were lying or just don't have clue.

olds455

Please Norm, I'd like to know as well seeing as you brought it up.

On a positive note, I'm just getting off work so I have a good 10hrs to get the engine buttoned up. Hopefully I could have it back in this weekend.