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I’m getting close now and it is time to figure out how to complete the fuel system. My motor swap has turned into a mini restoration, which I have enjoyed thoroughly, although I chose poorly with my fuel system upgrade to handle E85. In hindsight I should have gone the Tanks Inc route as the
In-tank fuel pump is clearly simpler than my solution.
First I used a Magnafuel Pro Star pump/filter which my tuner picked out. The pump is huge and is nearly impossible to mount in a decent location other than inside the trunk. I managed to mount it in front/above the fuel tank although I’m not 100 percent sure the rear diff won’t hit it if I bottom out. Don’t call Magnafuel tech support as they were zero help in this regard.
I managed to remove the stock fuel lines and run -8AN hose through the entire stock fuel line route with the assistance of some choice four letter words. Now I need to mount the regulator and plumb into the Holley 4150. I have the carb bracket to mount the regulator to and I thought I was good to go until I realized the air cleaner is too high for the hood to close.
After removing the spacer and mounting the carb directly on the Torker intake, the regulator with AN fitting is too tall to fit on the bracket. Looking for ideas on how to get there from here. Different mounting location for the regulator? Different regulator? Keep the carb spacer and get a drop base for the air cleaner?
Is that just a cap that's sitting on top of your carb to keep out junk? I would suggest moving the regulator. Couldn't you move it to the passenger's side in front of the fender next to the radiator. That's where the charcoal canister is on my 71 98.
Yes that’s the plastic Holley cover on top of the carb. I’m willing to move the regulator wherever and I hadn’t considered putting it in front of the fender wheel. That is actually a good idea. I was up most of the night researching options (you guys all do that too right?) and found this low profile 90 that has an ORB fitting on the regulator side. Not only is it a tighter 90 but I can get rid of the adapter in the regulator as well. The mainstream AN part houses don’t carry anything like that but I found it on a website called Improved Racing. I’m going to see if that clears the intake before I give up on plan A altogether.
+1 on moving the regulator over to the passenger wheel well. Anywhere along the side or up in the front works well.
The other thing I've seen done a lot with dual feed holleys is use a dual feed hard line and hang the regulator off the front of it. You're only using one outlet from the regulator instead of 2 then. Just cap the unused outlet(s).
I have a whole bunch of suggestions....
I build custom fuel systems for late model EFI applications, so I can give you an idea of what you need.
1. For E85, you should have a special filter as the standard paper/cellulose element can break down with E85. These are typically fiberglass elements.
2. You did not specify the type of braided line used, but I hope you are using Teflon lined hose as E85 will make the rubber hose short lived.
3. It looks like you are running a dead head style regulator? I prefer a return style regulator to prevent pressure creep with large pumps.
Unfortunately you already bought your parts as I could have pointed you in a different direction.
4. Put the regulator on the inner fender. It is better away from engine heat & vibration. Do not firewall mount as it will not pass NHRA safety.
5. Did you put in an aftermarket pickup on the tank? Pumps do not like inlet restrictions such as a 3/8" pickup tube. http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products.html makes some nice pickups for stock tanks.
6. The pump should be located lower than the tank to help it prime etc. This is hard to fit on a stock tanked vehicle, but should always be attempted.
Lonnie, thanks for the great advice. That’s the second vote for mounting regulator on inner fender. To answer your questions:
1) I have the stainless Magnafuel filter mounted right after the pump
2) Using teflon braided hose from Hot Rod Fuel Hose
3) Dead head Magnafuel regulator. That’s what they recommend for carbureted setup
4) Will mount on inner fender if I can’t get carburetor bracket to work
5) Installed sump with -10 pump feed and -8 bypass
6) No clue how to mount this large of a pump below tank. Only reason I have this pump is tuner ordered it for me (we are in Colorado Springs near Magnafuel). When I asked him where to fit a pump this large he said “in the trunk next to your fuel cell”. I have a driver ‘68 442 so I’m not putting a fuel cell (or a roll cage) in the car
I will upload a few pics so you can see what I’ve done so far.
Everything I read said there should be a pre-pump filter and a post-pump filter. The pre-pump filter is typically about a 100 micron and the post-pump is typically 10-25 micron.
Is the one attached to the pump a Post-filter? It wasn't clear in the directions, but looked to be on the inlet side.
Saw it was a polypropylene 35-40 micron filter.
Tried a few low profile 90 fittings but the regulator still won’t fit on a carburetor bracket. I think a lot of it has to do with the Torker intake as the plenums stick up and interfere with the fitting. Going with the the advice of Oddball and Lonnie’s to mount on passenger side, either on or in front of fender well, if I can figure out how to mount neatly. Looking for ideas on how to do that without too much damage.
There is room on the firewall but I ran the hose through the frame rail and it comes out in front of the motor. I did AC delete (hoping to go Vintage Air in future) and put the plastic delete cover over heater core hole.
1. Don't use hose when OEM-style metal or hard-plastic tubing will suffice. Tubing is less expensive, lighter, has longer service life than Teflon (PTFE) hose. The tubing will also have less porosity/permeability than rubber-based hose.
2. The hose routing sucks. In fact, it's dangerous. You'll be lucky if the frame doesn't chew through the hose where they rub together. Another hose looks like it may bounce against the fuel tank,eventually wearing a hole in the tank. It seems like that hose has a twist to it, and twisted hose is NOT good--it's a guaranteed early failure. Maybe that's a trick of the photo angle and I'm not seeing it "right". There's a third hose that appears to have steel braid on the outside of the hose end. Again, maybe that's some optical illusion.
3. There's "something"--a small-diameter hose, or an electrical cable--poked through a rough-cut hole in the floor pan and not secured in any way. No grommet. Totally unacceptable.
4. Ground wire has cheap crimp connector screwed to floorpan. No heat-shrink tubing to keep out moisture. Wire will corrode readily. NASA and the military demand crimp or wire-wound connections, but I'm not willing to pay for military-grade crimp connectors. The cheap-junk Asian crimp connectors commonly sold to D-I-Y cannot be trusted by themselves in any environment exposed to weather. I crimp, then solder, then cover with heat-shrink tubing (the kind that has hot-melt adhesive inside) to absolutely seal out moisture.
5. Dead-head regulators work...but return-style regulators work better, and are easier on the pump.
Last edited by Schurkey; July 13th, 2019 at 07:26 PM.
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,719
1. Pump should be mounted behind and below the sump
2. No sheet metal screws for mounting
3. # 10 hose from sump to pump
4. Pump should be on a relay (mandatory
5. Regulator should mount in front of the carb and be mounted so it can flex
6. This system does not use a return at the regulator
7. Should have two # hoses coming out of the regulator to the carbs float bowls
8. Keep in mind this not a street pump and will get very hot in prolonged street use
9. Setting up a fuel system is a lot of work
Last edited by VORTECPRO; July 14th, 2019 at 05:58 AM.
Thanks for the comments. Vortecpro any chance you have a close up picture of your regulator setup? At the moment I'm planning on mounting the regulator in front of the fender well with one port plugged and a dual feed line. Seems like using both regulator ports would ensure adequate fuel flow but I've been so frustrated trying to mount the regulator near the carburetor.
Thanks Schurkey for the comments. The pics were taken after installing pump/filters and hose but nothing was connected as far as wiring at that time. There is no stainless steel braid showing anywhere on the hose, must be some dirt or something you are seeing. According the magnafuel you can mount the pump 6-12" above fuel level with no concern so that is what I did. I ran the fuel hose above the shock tower as that is the OEM routing. Why is that routing considered dangerous? How else should I route the hose past the rear crossmember?
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,719
Originally Posted by teamwieland
Thanks for the comments. Vortecpro any chance you have a close up picture of your regulator setup? At the moment I'm planning on mounting the regulator in front of the fender well with one port plugged and a dual feed line. Seems like using both regulator ports would ensure adequate fuel flow but I've been so frustrated trying to mount the regulator near the carburetor.
Thanks Schurkey for the comments. The pics were taken after installing pump/filters and hose but nothing was connected as far as wiring at that time. There is no stainless steel braid showing anywhere on the hose, must be some dirt or something you are seeing. According the magnafuel you can mount the pump 6-12" above fuel level with no concern so that is what I did. I ran the fuel hose above the shock tower as that is the OEM routing. Why is that routing considered dangerous? How else should I route the hose past the rear crossmember?
I ran the fuel hose above the shock tower as that is the OEM routing. Why is that routing considered dangerous? How else should I route the hose past the rear crossmember?
I'd call it a "spring perch" not a "shock tower". That may be OEM routing, but hose MUST be secured in clamps (with brackets as needed) to prevent it vibrating against...anything. Steel-braid hose will abrade--or be abraded--by whatever it rubs against.
Sticking it inside a frame guarantees you'll never be able to easily inspect it. This is also true of steel tubing, but the steel tubing is smooth, it doesn't have the braided exterior that wears the frame (or is worn away, leaving a relatively fragile plastic liner exposed.)
Thus my preference for steel tubing (or OEM-style hard plastic tubing) anywhere hose isn't needed for flexibility, using the minimum amount of hose practical given the distance it needs to flex.
In Vortecpro's first photo, "I" would build a bracket and clamp the hose so it doesn't droop and rub on the alternator. Gotta be careful to leave enough slack between alternator and fuel-pressure regulator to allow for engine shake. In his second photo, it looks like the supply hose to the regulator should be clamped to the inner fender or (maybe better) clamped away from the inner fender using a short bracket--but it's hard to tell perspective from that camera angle. Maybe the hose is a long ways away from the inner fender.
We got our asses kicked at The Bus Plant for poor hose routing. We soon learned that "more secure" is way better than "not secure enough", and that hoses MUST NOT RUB ON ANYTHING under any operating conditions, period. We used every hose size from -4 to -24, and as you might expect, the larger sizes got pretty heavy--and buses ride rough, so the hose had to be clamped and bracketed so they wouldn't bounce over bumps and around corners. They get clamped (hard plastic blocks, nylon blocks, more-commonly we used steel- or aluminum-strap "cushion clamps", depending on engineering requirements) in whatever way is needed to allow flex--but not abrasion or "flopping around". I'm sure aviation/aerospace requirements are even more strict--but even cars and buses are subject to G-forces.
Last edited by Schurkey; July 14th, 2019 at 07:53 AM.
Schurkey I still don't know how else to get the hose past the rear cross member. Only other thing I can think of is drilling a hole through it and installing a bulkhead fitting. I've seen pics of other A Bodies that have a little room over the cross member to run hose/tubing but the '68 442 is pretty solid.
1. Are the body mounts in good condition? If they're originals, they've probably crushed some, and the gap between body and frame is reduced. If the body/frame gap isn't big enough, the hose is going to be pinched as the frame flexes, and PTFE/Teflon liner hose does not react well to being curved too sharply, or being pinched. The inner plastic liner can crimp, reduce flow, and eventually leak, but the outer braid looks OK.
2. You need to clamp the hose so it cannot slide back and forth where it goes between body and frame. I would clamp the other end--where it pokes out of the hole in the frame--using a short "standoff" bracket, so the hose can't flop up/down or in/out and touch the edge of the frame hole. There isn't much you can do about the hose routed THROUGH the frame, 'cause you don't have access to secure the hose with clamps.
Thanks Schurkey. I wonder if there is some kind of wrap or sleeve I can use to protect the hose where it comes in contact with the frame and exit/entry points. I’ll look for a stand-off bracket as well. I have the hose on padded clamps where it runs along the frame rail.
I've used cheap/ordinary fuel hose or heater hose to wrap hoses when contact is unavoidable. A section of radiator hose would work for larger sizes. The sacrificial hose rubs on "whatever" but the clamps or tie-wraps securing it cannot make contact with anything that would abrade them.
How about fabricating a bracket to mount the regulator where the original fuel pump would have mounted? I assume the mechanical pump is long gone, which means a fuel pump block off plate is needed. Solves 2 problems at once.
June 21st, 2019, 07:16 PM
