chasman414

Hi guys, I just freshened up my 1970 455 engine with rehone, new fitted rings,all new bearings & seals.heads compleatly redone by pro. I take it out for the first ride and it slobers oil out the rear seal and pushed the dipstick out of the tube (repeatedly)!!!! Tore the engine back down today and found all the rings ETC. look great, oil in excess in all cylinders, (everthing was coated with oil inside all cylinders), Buddy says it looks like the intake was leaking at bottom of gaskets and drawing oil in from crankcase, this was causing the rings to not seal because of the oil on the walls.We are clutching at straws because everything looked soo good Ring and wall wise. Also the head studs and new head gaskets were wet with water. Mondello says I did not tighten the ARP studs to #90 lbs. ARP directions said #80lbs? Will call ARP Mon. any Ideas?

Chas.

Sugar Bear

Were the end gaps checked when the rings were installed? Trying to determine if standard rings were installed in an engine that was bored oversize. Do the rings want to spring away from the pistons or stay seated in the grooves?

Check to see if the top and bottom compression rings are in the correct grooves. They are usually not the same top and bottom. When the cylinders were honed did they deglaze?

A leaking intake would explain oil getting pulled in but I'm not so certain about that much blowby resulting from it.

Does the PCV system work? Normal crankcase pressure could be building up and not getting released.

Good luck, wish it had gone better.

chasman414

The bore was deglazed or honed on a boring mill, (not by hand), the rings are .030 over and the end gaps are .o18 top and .022 2nd. all is correct there.PCV works perfectly. I also removed the rear neopream seal and it had destroyed itself on the crank. We figure the excessive crankcase pressure had exspanded it so hard against the crank that for a short time it got no oil and tore the lip up.It actually left a rubber ring around the crank!

Delmont 88 PA

Some things in general.

I'm assuming that the car smoked terribly--whether you are getting oil from the bottom of the intake or through blow by it would have to smoke.

1. Did you stagger the rings? the 2 oil rings should be offset by about an inch or so and the compression rings roughly 120 degrees apart and each one should be about 120 degrees from the center of the stagger of your oil rings. If you look at your piston and the center of the split of your oil rings is at 12 o'clock one compression ring should be at 4 o'clock and the other at 8 o'clock--the most important part of that orientation is between the rings (~120 degrees apart). Someone on the site that is more current at doing this may want to add or correct this.

2. How did the car run? It would have to be one hell of an intake leak to cause that much oil to enter the cylinders and the car could not possibly idle well. Also, I agree with Sugar Bear that this wouldn't cause excessive blow by. If you think about it the intake should always be under low pressure.

3. Are your compression rings upright? Not just in the right grooves but upright (mark on the ring, usually a dot, facing up. I believe the configuration of compression rings are such that, when in the upright position, combustion pressure will (and needs to) expand them to make a better seal. I would think that there would be compression problems is this case.

4. Do you have a breather cap installed? Dumb question but I had to ask.... On this avenue, enough blow by to push your dipstick up and blow out seals should be pouring out of this breather.

5. Now the dumbest question of all but one that was asked many times when I took my ASE certification test 30 years ago... is the oil level correct? If it's severely overfilled it should aerate (from the journals of the crank "whipping" the oil) but I'm sure that other funky things could happen. I learned this the hard way on my first dry sump motorcycle.

I'm sure that others on the site will have better information since, as stated earlier, I'm just a hobbyist now and not a practicing mechanic. They have helped me several times in the few months that I have been a member and may have seen this first hand.

Chris

Delmont 88 PA

Oh yeah, the ring orientation, both staggering and making sure that the compression rings are upright, should be to the specs that the ring manufacturer supplied. It wouldn't hurt to contact their tech line too.

Octania

I've taken apart a LOT of engines, but have never heard of such crankcase pressure. There's something a lot more serious wrong here than ring gaps not positioned properly. A compression check would have been a good idea, while assembled. Leakdown test?

Sounds like major crack, hole, or gasket mismatch to me. Cooling system pressure in the crankcase, almost.

chasman414

chasman414

We did a leak down test today and I have between 15% to 18% on all cylinders which I think is excessive, (you can hear the air hissing out of the block). The blow by may not have been as bad as I first thought because the rear seal was bad and it leaked like mad,but it still was enough to blow the dip stick out time after time.
The rings are installed exactly according to instructions. The car ran and idled fine and did not smoke, and I had 6 qts. of oil in a 7 qt. pan.We even measured the ring grove clearance and the ring thickness and it was .002". It's going back to the shop tomorrow to see if they have any ideas, sounds to me like I got some bad rings (Federal Mogul speed pros). Thanks Chas.

foreverolds

Chas

Have a very similar problem, however not as severe. Didn't blow out rear main seal or dipstick.
I have a 455 bored 60 over, roller rockers, mild cam. Rebuilt about 8000 miles ago, assembled it myself so I know the rings were installed properly yet I have excessive crankcase pressure. I blow oil out every conceivable gasket. On a 175 mile trip on the Interstate I can go through 1/2 qt of oil.
Smokes very little but it does smoke. If I hold a piece of cardboard over the oil fill tube and bring it up to about 2000 RPM it will spit oil out. After any distance on the interstate there are oil drops on everything, plug wires firewall etc.I have been going round and round with this and am about to pull the engine but I hesitate because I probably will not find anything wrong. I posted a thread about this problem back in January that you can search under my name Forever Olds and read the replies
There was one suggestion regarding the Mickey Thompson Valve Covers that I had on the engine. Didn't seem possible that they would have any effect but I put a set of stock covers on and have not yet had a chance to run it a long enough distance to see if it helped. at this ,point I'm willing to try anything.
Sorry I can't be of any help but at least you know you are not the only one with a problem like this.

Jim

Sugar Bear

What type of rings are being used and what steps does the ring manufacturer recommend for break-in/seating of the rings?

Was advised many years ago by a very experienced older mechanic to break rings in through several cycles of brisk acceleration and then coasting with foot off of the throttle. He claimed that the acceleration forced the top ring out against the wall with alot of pressure and the coasting/deceleration forced the bottom compression ring out the same way scuffing and seating them. Looking at the bevel on the inside edge on upper and lower compression rings leads to believe this is true.

Chasman have you taken yours apart? Was wondering if the cylinder walls had re-glazed or if the crosshatch is still visible.

chasman414

There were no brake in directions in the box of Speed Pro rings.The eng. is back at the shop and they are accessing the problem. I won't hear from them until next week, but I'm willing to bet the answer is the pistons are too loose!!!!
Chas.

olds 307 and 403

What pistons were used? Rings can take some time to seat. The above method is what I was told also. There seems to be a few pro builds lately with ring issues, maybe off shore ring issues?

chasman414

The engine has Diamond pistons to be fit @ .0045" in a 4.155" bore. The bore is at 4.157" already and will need honeing again! The package the rings came in clearly said MADE IN USA. But I'm not sure that can always be believed any more!

chasman414

chasman414

OK.,Here we go again!!!! Just put the motor together and back in the car after having the cylinders re-honed at LSM Eng. in Waterford Mi. They called Diamond about clearances and Diamond said no problem with fit. Put eng. back in and started it, ran great for about 20 min, then started smoking again at idle.Took the car out ran it hard for about 50 miles (not all at once but over several days) did a compression check and rings are obviously well seated. 192# lowest and 202# highest reading.Still smokes when idling and the plugs are oil soaked!!!! Was very carefully installing intake this time and even called Edelbrock for advice and followed it to the letter.I don't know if it is an intake leak yet until I pull it off to see if the gasket is oil soaked underneath. The motor runs great. Any ideas appreciated!?!?!?

ah64pilot

You mentioned in your original post that the intake wasn't sealing at the bottom side. Question: The head were done, what exactly was done to them?

What I'm getting at is that if the heads were milled it might not have been done correctly. If there is an angular difference between the intake and head intake side then the intake manifold will never seal properly. Thus, it would draw oil into the cylinder on the intake stroke. You also mentioned your leakdown test showed 18% leakdown...

That's what I'm seeing...it's worth a look. Did you dry fit the intake manifold prior to installation to check that it sits flush on all mating surfaces?

64Rocket

What type of valve stems seals are you using ? What stem to guide clearance do you have ?

Gene

chasman414

chasman414

The heads were redone by a pro (magnaflux,valve guides& seals,springs,seats,milled straight) Then I had all that stuff rechecked @ LSM,(mosty of it while I watched).I put the heads on the engine and checked for match with sight and feeler guages.I did not mount them with the gasket and imprint them on the new gasket because everything looked so good,but I should have. We also rechecked the valve seals by removing some springs and they looked perfect!!
Another wierd thing happened, I had removed and closed off the PCV valve because I had to remove the baffles from the valve covers to clear the roller rockers. I thought it might be sucking oil in there.That was not the case but my oil pressure dropped by 15lbs, when I plugged it back the oil pressure rose again but only 10lbs!! Ever heard of that??

chasman414

Is there a good way to check intake seal????

Rickman48

"Back in the day", a good friend switched the intake on his '65 442, NOTHING ELSE!
Ran good - and he had to see his Mother in Dayton.
Got some sleep and left the next morning - blew the motor close to Indy from blow-by!
Had it rebuilt somewhere down there, and it never did it again, but I don't believe I ever heard a reason for it happening.

ah64pilot

Well you mentioned your buddy said the intake was leaking from the bottom of the gasket. I was asking if you dry fit it prior to installing it the 2nd time to see if the angle of the head (intake side) and the intake (head side) were the same. In other words, when you set it down it should sit flat on the head, not have a gap at either the top or the bottom which would indicate either the head or intake is not true.

Sometimes castings aren't always correct, you need to check the mating surfaces for proper alignment prior to installing the gasket. Also, what type of gasket are you using?

chasman414

chasman414

I did check the mating surfaces very closely by sight and with feeler gages and could find no separation at all. I have been super careful, I'm using an Edelbrock gasket that's about .030" thick and their sealers. I was hopeing someone had an Idea that wasn't quite as obvious!?!? I'm at wits end with this!!
Now on top of all this my oil pressure suddenly drops by an average of 5lbs.

chasman414

Update on this motor, The problems go on and get worse!! After about 2hrs. run time as I said the oil pressure dropped off, I pulled the eng. again and disassembled it. #3 & #4 Mains gone, I mean destroyed to the point that I have no idea how they didn't turn on the crank. Called LSM and they said to bring the eng. back in so they could remeasure everything to find out what is going on (they have been very good so far), I've been doing some reading on my own and I find that Olds 455 have a problem with #4 mains because the block is so weak there. Lsm said it looks like detonation so they are going to measure actual compression and other things, any suggestions???!!!