Amplitude

Greetings all.
I'm looking at buying my first 442. I've found a 68 that looks impeccably clean with:

• All upgraded aftermarket suspension
• Original 4spd car that now has a Tremec 5spd with new clutch
• New Exhaust with X pipe
• Upgraded P/S Box
• Power disc/drum combo
• All new or restored interior
• Vintage Air

The VIN comes out to a true 442 car. However, the block casting is a 390925E. I've been told that GM did a warranty replacement of the original engine in 1969. Is it possible that somehow that earlier 400 was sitting on a shelf and ended up in this 68 car?
With as good as the car is otherwise, I don't know that it would really dissuade me from buying it. However, I would like to know if it is in fact the "correct" engine for this car. Primarily for when I go to sell it on.
If there is no way that engine was put in this car by GM in any fashion, then I might have to build something from scratch with the correct casting number, or shelve this engine as "close to" date code matching, and install my built AFR headed 427 BBC sitting in my garage. LOL

Thanks,

allyolds68

If you don't have the original engine you're better off with the E block than a period correct G block. It's a better engine

The tranny isn't original either so why worry about it

And FWIW it's definitely possible that a dealer replaced it with that engine.

Amplitude

@allyolds68 Thanks for the response.
I was thinking along the same lines. Perhaps they happened to have an E block engine sitting in a crate for some reason leftover from late 67, why wouldn't they just swap a 400 for another 400. Or would a warranty replacement engine have had to come directly from central parts distribution?
If the current owner has the serialized documentation to prove that engine swap took place in the period, by the dealership, does that actually negate the date code mismatch of the car and engine. Would the dealership have re-stamped the engine itself with the VIN derivative number if this swap actually took place?
I realize the trans doesn't match, and perhaps not the rear-end either. But if I could prove that it is the correct engine, for that car, whether warranty replaced or not. Then mostly likely it comes out, goes on a stand, and I build something new, or my 427 gets sprayed in Bronze for it's new home. It's an all forged hydraulic roller motor with AFR 265CC big oval heads, all built to Marine specs for my boat (5800-6200 RPM all day long). It has the best of everything, and I can't let it just sit there unused.

allyolds68

personally I’d stick with the Olds engine. Yes, the block should be stamped with the VIN derivative on the service replacement engine. At least the last 6 of the VIN. That’s what Olds required. Not all replacement blocks seemed to get that though

Fun71

Seriously, you’re concerned with engine originality with all that non original aftermarket stuff? Why concerned with just the engine?

edzolz

If you are really concerned with the engine and none of the other stuff, you bought the wrong car.

Amplitude

Thus far, to my knowledge nothing has been done, that cannot be undone. Now, I'm not really concerned with originality, I just like to learn more and solve puzzles that come my way. In so far as originality for any purist reason. But if by some strange twist, it is an issue to a buyer when I go to resell the car in 5-20 years, or if for some reason I decide to put it back to date code "stock", I would like to be able to point to the fact that it is in fact the original numbers matching engine, and I have could have acquired a trans and other components that also at least have the correct date code. Even if it isn't technically "numbers matching". To me the engine is the heart of the car. So, if this one is somehow original, I would probably look more toward preserving it, rather than swapping the cam, intake, and doing some head work.

But more than anything, I just like the story that in 1969, this 1968 model year car, might have somehow gotten an engine for a 1966-67 car under warranty.
It's like the guys that bought the GT350H cars back in the late 60s, assuming they were all original. Until they started checking and found that somebody rented the car, ripped out the K code engines, and swapped them for the A or D code 289 out of their own ride. There are all sorts like that from the rent-a-racer program and other that stories from the muscle car era that really intrigue me. Call it automotive archeology.

joe_padavano

Any factory authorized warranty repair would have installed the year-correct engine. A dealer or repair shop could have installed a used engine for a customer, but it would not have been a factory authorized warranty replacement. Blown G-block motors were not uncommon in these cars.

OLDSter Ralph

First, from reading your other thread, you would need about $50,000 to reverse all the "non-stock" items
Second, if the Oldsmobile factory warrantied the engine, they would have sent the correct engine because they were still in production. IF a dealer had an engine sitting around on a pallet and used it as a replacement engine tells me it wasn't warranty replacement. The engine block casting number has already pointed to an incorrect engine, without even looking at the serial number.
Third, "stories" are a dime a dozen. You can find a posting some place on the internet to affirm anything you believe. There is also automotive mythology.

VORTECPRO

"427 gets sprayed in Bronze for it's new home. It's an all forged hydraulic roller motor with AFR 265CC big oval heads, all built to Marine specs for my boat (5800-6200 RPM all day long). It has the best of everything, and I can't let it just sit there unused"


You know the right thing to do..........................

Amplitude

LS Swap? Buick 455?

From everything I’ve read, a strong reliable 550hp Olds is very expensive to build. Especially when I’ve got that power just sitting in my garage.

What if I got Olds scripted valve covers? Does that make it okay?

what about an L47 Aurora V8. That would actually be kinda cool boosted. Same engine used in the Shelby Series 1. Anybody ever done that one? I have a strange feeling that aftermarket support may be lacking there...

Koda

Ok, like said above, there is no way that is a warranty engine. That is a BS story for legitimacy of a non-original engine.

However, there is nothing wrong with an E block 400 in a 68 442 restomod. It's a better engine than the G, and you should carry on with it. If you were to restore the car back to totally stock, source a G engine for it, but there is no point because it is a restomod, and you are buying it as and for a restomod.

If you must have a bigger engine, get an Olds 455 core and build it. They aren't that expensive to build. Then sell the E block 442 engine to a 66/67 442 guy. However, if you've already got that 427, why aren't you buying a roller to stick it in if that's your plan?

Amplitude

I had/have two paths I was going down for the whatever car I buy. Note: The only way I can get away with buying a car at all right now, is if it is currently running and driving, I can take my kids to car shows right away, and I won't immediately turn it into some long term project that we never get to use.

1. I buy an affordable clean (rust free) car that is running but either has an older swap like a 350TPI, or stock small displacement V8. But one with a 100% straight frame and body, and as many factory options as possible
   1. That way it runs and drives now, and I'm not immediately jumping into new project territory.
2. I spend more money and buy a car that is already built with most of the things I would otherwise add, or that has all the factory items I would want. Like a 70 GS455 with a documented engine rebuild, and A/C.

I've looked and looked for a truly solid car at a good price. This marketing company, that really just does ads for people. had a 70 GS455 that I was interested in, but it sold before I could buy it. then I found this 442 on his site. It looked amazing, had every option I wanted or could really ever do to the car. The only thing it's missing is some more HP. But I figured maybe with just a cam and intake, I could wake it up enough for now.

I would do a built olds 455, and maybe I go down that road at some point. But I have a freshly built 427 just sitting in my garage collecting dust, but making all the power I could want, and I know it will live nearly forever with the duty cycle I would put it under.

Perhaps I just look for an engine builder, individual that switched cars, or even a Jet Boat guy that would be interested in a trade.

Magna86

That's alot of expensive work already done to the car..You said it has everything you wanted so why the thoughts about the engine. I'd buy it and drive it. You will surprised how much fun that car will be to drive. People are too worried about numbers instead of just the joy of cruising. The 400E will have plenty of get up and go. No street engine is running 5k all day ever. If you aren't satisfied with it's power then you can take your time to swap the 427 in and sell the 400 to someone needing one for a 66-67.

Owen Miller

I spent 35 years in GM dealer parts. Never once did I see
a replacement block or engine stamped with OE VIN numbers.
As to using something other than the proper replacement, yes
it was done; not often, but it did happen.

Owen

Amplitude

Thanks for all the input everyone. Since it doesn't seem like there is any way of the story really being true without real documentation. I'm just going to start stashing money and parts away for an indestructible 455 build. Lets face it, stick shift cars with slicks are not easy on engines.
Wife gets pissed if I spend money on something and it breaks. She would rather I spend more money on something that won't break.
Sometimes I love that woman!

OLDSter Ralph

I think you have it reversed. The engine doesn't let go on the starting line, its the transmissions, clutches and rear ends that break.

67OAI

The "E" block should make plenty of power if tuned correctly. What rear end gear is in the car? If it is in the low 3s or even in the 2s, the car will feel sluggish. If the engine and trans were replaced, maybe the rear end was too. I'ld look at that gear ratio first.

Amplitude

Rear gear is reportedly the 3.23. Based on anecdotal evidence of reported engine RPM in 5th gear at 70mph, I'd believe it.

I was planning on doing 3.73 gears in the stock O 10/12bolt for now. The TKO 500 has a steep 1st gear, and I know from experience that it is almost useless on launch with 4.10 gears.

Fun71

I agree that the 400E can be built to god power levels.

Unfortunately, there are no 3.73 gears for the O-Type.
3.42. 3.91, and 4.10 gears are the only ones available, and luckily for you they are made to fit the 3.23 carrier. https://www.richmondgear.com/wp-cont...n1.pdf#page=32

Here's some info on O-Type gears that Brian Trick posted many years ago:

Here is a list of the O-Type posi units & what gears they will fit:

#673 = 2.56 & 2.78 ratios, 28 spline
#671 = 3.08 & 3.23 ratios, 28 spline
#588 = 3.42 & anything numerically higher, 28 spline
#672 = 3.42 & anything numerically higher, 31 spline
***The 31 spline axles were offered in late 67-68 OAI cars only.

Amplitude

I was just throwing out a number based off of my Ford background. I would probably do the 3.90 set, as those are available new for the 8.5 from Richmond. Either that, or retrofit an 8.8", 9", or true GM 12 bolt with C-clip eliminators.

Koda

If that thing has a 3.23 and already has a Tremec 5 speed in it, you need to think about total first gear mechanical advantage before you go thinking it's not enough. Even the least geared TKO compared to the M21 will make that rear end, in first gear, act like a 3.66. A healthy BBO will be more than enough for your "take your kids to car shows and have fun" needs with that rear. Too many people set their cars up like a drag racer because it's more manly or something, then sell them because they don't like driving them around the 95% of the time they're not at the track, except for the John Force burnouts they do at traffic lights.

There is something to be said for highway cruise at a low engine speed. It is chill. It is calm. It is power in reserve. Not everything about a muscle car is stoplight to stoplight racing.

Amplitude

I’ve already had a 3200lb 500hp “street” car with a Tremec TKO and 4.10 gears. It actually wasn’t bad at all on the highway. But at the strip, that 1-2 shift came up way too soon. I was actually going to swap that car over to 3.55 gears since it was going turbo. But 3.73 would've been better for my NA runs.
Who knows, maybe I’ll stick with the 3.23 gear for now once I get it. But I know in the future, once I start to take it to the strip, I know that I’ll want at least a 3.42 if not a 3.90. Especially if I go with a 28" tall slick.


Right now it’s all speculative and planning until the car actually gets here from New Jersey.

BTW "Going to shows and cruising with the kids" is how I sold the idea to the wife. And while it definitely will happen quite a bit, I think daddy will be spending most of the time in the car alone. I will probably daily it on dry days during the summer months.