1970cs

I noticed in JWO the last couple of months that they were not listed as a chapter anymore! I am assuming they dropped out of OCA.

Anyone with any insights?

Pat

Oldsnut71442

We couldn't get enough members of the chapter to also join or remain members of OCA.

1970cs

o.k., thanks for bringing me up to speed!

Pat

jaunty75

Is there really that much of a following for these cars? Aren't they just rebadged Pontiac Grand Ams (or vice versa)?

I have nothing against these car at all, but I can't imagine they're the kind of car that people will hang onto as the cars age. There's just nothing "collectible" about them other than the fact that they represent some of the last cars produced by Oldsmobile. But that's also true for the Bravada, Aurora, and Silhouette, too. Has anyone started an Oldsmobile Silhouette club?

Boldsmobile

OCA would do well to market to, recruit and recognize these later version Oldsmobiles.

Its not about the collectability. I hope the OCA recognizes that too.

jaunty75

On the contrary, I think it most certainly IS about the collectibility. That's what it's all about.

Why else do people join the OCA? Do you think that the typical driver of a 10-15 year old compact car, which is probably a 35-year-old single mother of two trying to make ends meet, thinks of her car as a hobby and will the join the OCA? I doubt it very much.

Yes, the OCA should do all it can to support and promote the last Oldsmobiles, but there's only so much they can do if the cars themselves are not regarded as all that remarkable or desirable.

As an example, the last Firenzas were made in the 1980s, and some of them are now officially antiques as they are more than 25 years old. Do we see any interest in these cars at all in the OCA and amongst Oldsmobile fans? Not that I've ever seen.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Some Oldsmobiles are hugely desirable and always will be, and others will never be collectible no matter how old they get.

1970cs

Not to start a Princeton debate! Currently there is a following, and in my last conversation with some of the Alero modified group at Homecoming a few mentioned that they are planning on putting their cars up and getting something else as a daily driver.

The final 500's are a collector series, but I will speculate that roughly 3% will be kept as such?

As far as rebadged, yes both run down the same line but there are some noticeable differences. GT had dual exhaust outlets= GLS does not. Red back lighting to gauges and etc. Alero was clear. GT had body cladding=GLS was plain, Round HVAC vents that moved 180 degrees in any direction=Alero just plain sucks on their vents. Grand Am's front profile was better than the Alero, but the Alero was better looking from the rear profile (IMO) I could point out several others but I will leave at that!

My family has owned both cars. As far as the future goes, we will have to see? FYI my Alero is being kept as a collectable, bought new as my last new Olds till I pass on, who knows it may be cheaper than a coffin!

Pat

Oldsnut71442

I own 4 Oldsmobiles right now and soon to be a 5th if the deal works out. Now my '71 is my pride but I absolutely love my F500 Alero. It is Best of Class at the last 2 OCA Nats I attended and will be in Springfield next week. I also own another Alero 2 dr.

Alero's and Aurora's have their own websites that are devoted specifically to that car and many don't even bother coming on this site. I am co-owner of Aleromod and we have some very knowledgeable and creative guys on the site. They are doing engine swaps, 6 speed swaps, sound systems, superchargers, PCM programming etc.

Boldsmobile hit it on the head when he stated that OCA needs to recruit the younger crowd. The problem is that we have tried and tried to get these guys on Aleromod to join OCA but they see no purpose or benefit to joining the club. With all the bad PR that OCA is getting lately many wonder why anyone would join or remain in the club. The BOD does not want to follow their own rules but want the chapters to follow the membership rule to a T and because of that there is no more Alero Chapter. I am a 31 year OCA member and I may not re-join next June if things don't get civil and BOD follow their own rules.

I remember hearing older members rip on the Hurst Olds when they came out in '83-'84. "New cars are pieces of junk" many claimed. Now they are very collectible and sought after. The last generation of Oldsmobile's will gain in popularity as time goes on.

It is not wether someone else thinks it is collectable, if you love your car is all that matters. I am on the prowl for a 5 speed coupe for my OSV replica build.

I personally LOVE the Alero and the Aurora's

jaunty75

Yes, but what do you recruit them WITH? You're a 31-year member of the OCA. I first joined more than 20 years ago. That tells me that we're "old", and it's usually cars that you grew up with that attract you to collect and make a hobby of as an adult. What cars did the under-25 or under-30 crowd grow up with? Plus, you've got to have some money to be able to restore and work on cars as a hobby. That typically means later-in-life where your financial situation might be a bit better and more stable. Yes, there are 20-somethings who own Oldsmobiles as a hobby and who post on this site, but where is the core of the hobby? Where it's always been. Among the older crowd. What do we hear from most anyone who has attended an OCA Nationals? That everyone there has gray hair if they have any hair at all. This is the way it's always been and likely always will be.

Getting back to the OCA, one way of getting members is the OCA's current policy of requiring anyone who is a member of an official chapter to also be a member of the OCA itself. Many people complain about this requirement, and it sounds like it's the reason that the Alero chapter went out of business, but what would happen if this requirement were relaxed? Fewer people would join the OCA, and many who are members now would quit (if they aren't thinking of quitting already). This doesn't benefit the OCA at all. Of course, people can answer that the OCA needs to provide more to its members to justify the cost of membership. My response is to that is that (A) the cost of membership in the OCA is really not very high. It's less than $5 per month. And, (B), what does any national car club provide its members with besides an annual car show and a monthly magazine, both of which the OCA provides?

It also has model year advisors, classified ads, provides insurance to local chapters to hold their cars shows (which is a very important benefit that is often unnoticed by the rank and file), and more. Again, I argue that it's already a pretty good value as is. Yes, there is turmoil in the leadership at the moment, but that's a passing thing and should not be the basis of a decision on whether or not to be a member.

I'm curious. Even if the Alero chapter is no longer an official chapter, does it still exist as a club? There is nothing to stop a group of Alero owners or owners of any car from forming their own club outside of the OCA umbrella.

It sounds like there IS a following for these cars, and given their status as among the final Oldmobiles made, I'm not surprised to hear this. But how large is this following in the grand scheme of things? Sure, it's cool to own one of the Final 500 of the Alero or any of the last-to-be-produced Oldsmobiles, but that's not a very large base on which to sustain a club considering that these cars are spread all over the country.

1970cs predicts that maybe 3% of the Final 500 will be kept as collectible cars. That's 15 cars. That may be pessimistic, and I'm guessing it'll be more than that, and certainly Aleros outside of the final 500 will be kept as well. But all of this still begs the basic question. How large a part of the Oldsmobile-collecting hobby will final-production Oldsmobiles ever be 20 and 30 years from now? It will be interesting to see.

Oldsnut71442

Many of the former Alero Chapter members are on Aleromod. All 4 owners of Aleromod are OCA members also.

Yes, there are many grey hairs at events. Based on discussions with younger guys has been that their cars were dismissed by many of the older guys as junk, not really Oldsmobile built. Not all had this attitude but many did. Many older guys don't understand the new technology so they dismiss it.

I personally think that OCA charges too much for membership. We could save so much money if they made it available on-line to save printing costs. I question why we have a $247,000 CD in a bank in Texas that is now under dispute amongst the BOD's. That is above and beyond the regular operating funds. Why do we need that much. I think Boldsmobile would agree about the excess funds.

You and I may be old but I welcome any Olds and have told my wife to shoot me if I act older than 2 years old.

jaunty75

I agree on both the quarter-million-dollar CD and the digital thing. I'm guessing that JWO is prepared on a computer, anyway, and it would be a simple matter to convert it to pdf and email it to anyone who agreed to take a copy that way. To encourage this, OCA could offer a discount on the membership fee to anyone who takes the magazine digitally, or they could charge a surcharge to anyone who wants to continue to receive the paper copy. I'm sure most of the cost of producing and distributing JWO is in the printing and mailing.

MANY organizations, much to the chagrin of the post office I'm sure, have gone away from paper copies of their publications. Just this month I received the latest issue of a magazine I've subscribed to for many years, PC World, and emblazoned on the cover, without any prior warning, was the announcement "you are holding the last paper copy of PC World you will ever receive." From here on out, they're totally digital, with no option to receive a paper copy, even if you wanted to pay for it.

PC World does have agreements with Amazon and so forth so that you can read the magazine on a Kindle, and I have a Kindle, so this will probably not turn out to be so bad. Of course, one could always print out the pdf file they receive so they can hold the paper in their hands, but it wouldn't be quite the same.

One possible obstacle to OCA going digital is those gray-haired members. I'm guessing a certain number of them are not terribly computer savvy and would object to having to access the magazine via computer. Some of them might not even own a computer. But like I say, a surcharge could be imposed on these people to cover the cost of producing their copies, and this might give them an incentive to become computer literate.


I was the editor of the Mid-Ohio Chapter's newsletter for about 2 years before relocating to the southwest, and we distributed that newsletter by email. There were a few holdouts, including one 80+ year-old man who I'm sure has never touched a computer keyboard in his life, who insisted on getting a paper copy, but about 90% of the membership received theirs electronically. The current editor does it the same way.

Redog

This thread shows the decline of OCA, that is all.

BTW, the Aleros that are the only group that roll into Homecoming 15-20 deep, hope you got pics of that, because it's not happening again

Oldsnut71442

Redog(Kenny) is right, this was the last year that we will attend the Olds Homecoming show as a group. We really were the only coordinated group to attend Homecoming year after year.

Redog's train horn signaled our entrance and exit from the show as a group and will be silenced from her forward.

Boldsmobile

Have you read the OCA mission statement? Funny That Cutlass, 442, Hurst Olds, 88 or w30 are not even in the mission statement but Alero is.

What consumer insight do you have that says Aleros are owned by thirty something single moms? How any Aleros on the road total? How many in the hands of people who love their cars? Until you know the answer you can have your opinion but you can't say I'm wrong.

Go to alermod or acna or wbody and educate yourself!

The Alero guys love their cars as much as the collectors guys love theirs. As do the Aurora guys. As do the Wbody guys.

The club should be all about the marque. If you make that the priority over ALL else there can be reasons for the later models guys to join. If its about the marque the model or year does NOT matter.

I bet if membership was $5 , which I believe it can be, more people would join. How about give all new members free one year membership?

I don't want the magazine at all. How much does that save? Look it up in the financial statement. Over the life of a membership how much does each member "earn" back in benefits. Here's a guess only if you go to the nationals regularly.


If the club cant find a way to be all inclusive and all about the marque is should be renamed Dwindling,overcharging ,narrowminded soon to be extinct club of America.


I've already let my membrship lapse. I'm not interested in the petty bickering, back stabbing and who's Johnson is bigger than whose.

I can't believe the fiscal irresponsibility of this org, give me a benefit for my money and prove to me the BOD stands for the greater good of the org and I will rejoin.

jaunty75

I just look around me. And I didn't say Aleros, specifically, I said "10 to 15 year old compact cars," of which the Alero certainly is one. Who is the typical owner of any 10 to 15 year old car, Alero or otherwise? Not someone who is collecting it, at least not yet, but rather someone who is using it as their daily driver.

I didn't say you're wrong. Total Alero production over the six model years (1999-2004) of the model's existence was about 775,000. That's a pretty healthy number, and I'm sure quite a few of them are still around. But how many of those are in the hands of people who "love" them? I would guess far smaller. To most of their owners, at this point, they're just an old used car. They haven't yet reached the age where they might start being looked at as a piece of history and will start being set aside in significant numbers. They might never be.

I'm sure there's a following, no doubt, but this isn't the point. There is a following to any car every made, no matter how few or how many were actually produced. The intensity of love and activity by those who view the car as something more than transportation is not an indicator of much of anything if those people are relatively few in number.


The point of my earlier post was not about the Alero. It was about the difficulty in attracting younger people to the hobby when the typical hobbyist is interested in the cars that were a part of his formative years. The 20 and 30-somethings of today had far different cars as part of their youth than the 50- and 60-somethings did.

The Oldsmobile hobby has not advanced to any significant degree. Twenty and 30 years ago, the core of the Oldsmobile hobby was the '50s and 60s cars generally and the '64 to '72 Cutlasses specifically. Fast-forward to today, and nothing has changed. Attend any Oldsmobile-centered show, and what do you see. Mostly '64-'72 Cutlasses and 442s. The Oldsmobiles of the mid- and late-'70s, '80s, and '90s right to the end have not garnered the size of following that the earlier cars have, and they probably never will.

The Oldsmobile hobby is stuck. All the Oldsmobiles that will ever be produced have been produced. There is no chance now that the post-'72 Oldsmobiles will ever push aside the earlier cars or even take their place alongside them because if they were going to do that, they would have done it by now.

Yes, there are fans of the later cars, the last-generation Toronados, the Auroras, the Aleros, and the rest, and they certainly should be welcomed into the hobby as much as anyone else, but their numbers will be small compared to the hobby's core, which will likely remain the '50s and '60s cars as long as there are any around to collect.

Oldsnut71442

Amen Brother

The one big benefit I have reeived is the long distance and long term friendship of those I have met at various meets all over the country. other than that they could become extinct quickly.

Redog

Personally, I'm not going to miss Homecoming at all. Dissed by the older car owners, no more classes (good luck finding the model year of car you want to see).

Redog (my alero) has seen about 50 miles since returning to Philadelphia after Homecoming. It was my daily driver for 13 years and it has seen 2 transmissions, 2 wives, a few girlfriends, 2 dogs, 1 kid, snow, rain, ice, and the list goes on. Once the garage is cleaned out/straightened out, Redog will find himself in there. The Delta behind it, and the Volvo will get a driveway spot instead of the street.

The car will be repainted, and an engine rebuild will happen. It will see shows and some track time, but it is no longer a DD

As for being dissed by the older car owners, we are treated like Honda Civics with fart can mufflers which are not street legal by any means. Plus in 2009, somebody made a video and put it on Youtube of the "Real last Oldsmobiles" and only videoed the 99-01's with the 2.4 twin cam motor. Sorry if my 3400 SFI 60* V6 pissed you off, actually, I'm not. This is not an engine that I swapped in the car, it's the way it came for the factory, which was right down the street in Lansing. Not that I really give a **** if my car was in some crappy video anyway, it just burns me up to see people claim to love a name plate so much, then totally disrespect something that is made with the same nameplate, because they don't like/understand it.

And you can't figure out why Oldsmobile is no more?

Does anybody know about the Ford Probe story? Google it and see what unity of car owners can do

Oldsnut71442

Why can't they take their place next to the '72's, they have in my life.

Only the future will tell but the fact that the bodies last longer is a big help and parts are a hell of a lot cheaper than a 70-72 Cutlass, I know first hand. That is enough to draw younger guys to start a project.

Oldsnut71442

GFT and a big LMAO.

starfire

Those two statements are wrong. The Motor City Rockets have been rolling in as a group (12 - 20 cars each year) ever since the Homecoming dropped the classes. Prior years the Alero group was able to do so because you were all in the same class, the MCR was split up amongst all the classes back then.

It's a shame you won't be attending Homecoming anymore. I will miss seeing your cars and checking out the mods that are done and the stock vehicles. I think the Alero is a great car, and it, along with the Aurora and Intrigue shows what Oldsmobile could have done if they had been given the time to dig themselves out of the large hole that the Achieva/Malibucutlass type cars had driven into.

Oldsnut71442

No offense meant but Motor City Rockets are pretty much local guys that are within an hour or so of Lansing. Difference with the Alero guys is that we have guys from all over the country, Cali, Texas, Kansas, Alabama. We even had a member from Germany a few years ago. I think our group received the long distance award 3-4 years in a row.

starfire

True, although I think I would be more likely to make the trip in a 2003 Alero than I would be in, say, a 1963 Starfire. We do have members who make the drive to Lansing from Traverse City (4 - 5 hours) as well. All I can say is I certainly will miss seeing all of the Aleros at Homecoming in the future years. It's a shame a few bad apples had to spoil it. I think you would find if you took a poll that most people at the Homecoming appreciate your cars and will also miss them.

jaunty75

I meant take their place alongside the earlier cars in terms of popularity. You can certainly park one next to a '72 all day long. And you're one guy and good for you that you have a place for a final Oldsmobile. But occupying the same place as the '50s and '60s cars all across the Olds hobby? No way.

When the day comes that I attend any Oldsmobile-centered show and find that 50% of the cars there were made after 1995, instead of from 1964 to 1972, which is what I see now, THEN I'll know that the final Oldsmobiles have moved into the mainstream of the hobby. Until then...

Redog

I came out for 10 years, from Philly.

By the time I reached Ohio, I was half way there

Best time was 10:43, worst was 16:30 (and it was even harded listening to everybody cry that it took them 9 hours )

jaunty75

With no intent to actually fan any flames here, and I do agree that the older guys could have been a bit more diplomatic, but when you boil it down, aren't they right?

I ask anyone to answer this simple question. What is there about an Alero that makes it uniquely an Oldsmobile? As I said earlier, it was a corporate twin of the Pontiac Grand Am. Get more than about 50 feet away, and it's hard to tell them apart. It certainly isn't the engine, which would probably have been the most common answer to this question through the end of production of the Olds Rocket V-8 in 1990.

This was the era of the corporate engine. Engines in the Alero were also found in every other mainline brand (Chevy, Pontiac, Buick) that GM made. By the time of the Alero and the other final Oldsmobiles, parts of all types were common across all the brands, and much of the distinctiveness of a Chevy versus a Pontiac versus an Oldsmobile compared to earlier eras was lost.

I just bought a low-mileage, great-shape '98 Cutlass for my daughter, and I just the other day bought the set of factory service manuals (3 volumes) for it. I laughed when I saw the covers on them. These manuals are for both the '98 Olds Cutlass and the '98 Chevy Malibu. Same exact car except for the shape of the script on the fenders.

As nice as the final Oldsmobile might be, this is the reason, I think, that these cars will never be celebrated like the Oldsmobiles of earlier generations. Plain and simple.

1970cs

jaunty75

You know it's time to move away from the computer and lie down and rest when you start quoting yourself!

jaunty75

I wonder how many people on here know what a "Princeton Debate" is?

For that matter, I wonder how many know what "Princeton" is?

Redog

That's pretty funny, I can tell a Grand Am, Malibu, and an Alero from 50 feet away. I can also tell a 2005 Impala, Grand Prix, and Boniville from 50 feet away too and guess what, I can tell a 72 Cutlass, from a 72 GTO, 72 Buick GS, and 72 Chevelle from 50 feet away as well.

To simply put it, putting the newer Oldsmobiles in a class as "junk" "not and Olds" and whatever else is down right insulting.

I also have an 85 Delta 88, which I love. I don't love the 307 though, but I'll be dropping a 330 Olds in there in the future. 330 Olds, notice I didn't say a 350 SBC.

So every old guy at homecoming that disses our cars, is correct? You do not evolve with the times?

The 90 442 was call "Not a real Oldsmobile" however it was the 1st 4 cyl car to hit the 14's in the 1/4 mile and it the first true "sport compact" something that those rice burner civics think the 92 Civic has the title of. They do not. Is that a good thing? yes it is!!

Thank you for telling me that I do not own an Oldsmobile, but I do! I own 2 of them, and I am proud of both of them.

You talk about distinctive interiors, but yet not being able to tell the difference from a new car from 50 feet away? Can you really see the interior of a 72 Cutlass from 50 feet away? Not even in a convertible, sorry!!

I'll go back and forth all day about this.

I expect this kind of disrespect from the Tuner or Mustang crowds, but not from within the Oldsmobile community

jaunty75

Oh, for pity's sake, grow up. I was mostly making conversation, and as I've said before, I have nothing against the Alero or any of the end-of-production Oldsmobiles, but, like it or not, they are not distinguished in the same way as any earlier Oldsmobile.

As I said, what has always made an Oldsmobile an Oldsmobile and a Chevy a Chevy and a Ford a Ford, more than anything else, is not so much what it looks like, although that is important, but what's under the hood.

All you need to demonstrate this is to look at what happens on this very website.

A guy comes on here and says he wants to put an Olds engine in Chevy and he'll get 20 guys chiming in congratulating him and offering all kinds of advice.

A guy comes on here and says he wants to put a Chevy engine in an Olds, and, before you can say boo, 20 guys want to cut his throat.

Boldsmobile

By that argument, 83 84 Hurst Olds is the Alero of its day. Same doors and fenders as a regal, same motor as a regal.

It's not the 1964-1972 Lansing built club of America.

jaunty75

You said it.

car_designer

Actually, add most RWD Olds of the day to that list.

I think the 307 was available in most GM division cars. I've seen them factory installed in Caprices and Cadillacs.

I've also got a rear door from a Buick LeSabre on my Delta 88. Same body lines.

jaunty75

Yeah, and what kind of following do the full-size '80s Oldsmobiles have today? Compared to the earlier cars, very little.

I don't need to provide examples of my point. You guys keep doing it for me.

Redog

And you say I need to grow up.

You may not think you are insulting in end of Oldsmobile production cars, but you are. You may not think you have anything aganist the later Oldsmobile cars, but you do. Your posts prove that

Bottom line, My Alero is not going to suck any pre 1972 Oldsmobile's tail pipe

Guess what, a early 70's Chevelle has the same body lines as a early 70's Cutlass. Same as the 80's cars, same as the 90's cars, same as the '00 cars, and guess what, you could probably go back in the 50's and 40's with that statement. So it's OK in the 70's, but not 40 years later.

I could get really nasty, but as a mod, I'm done with this thread.

Boldsmobile

Your logic would also say those Hurst Olds are as deserving to be at the show as an Alero.

Im not proving your point, im pointing out how many people you are offending with the 64-72 mighty than thou opinion.

I have no problem with your opinion but you should be aware of how it makes others feel. You may not care of even be aware. Id act that way too if i didnt care about others.

1970cs

Jaunty, I will side with the others here, I know and respect your opinions, but you talk about not fanning flames and (not referring to you) but older generation to show some diplomacy. But in the same post or any there after you seem to take jibes or shots.

You have to realize some words cut like a knife and judging by the way people reacted on this thread......

Pat

jaunty75

Let's get one thing straight here. It may not be explicit in what I've said above, but all I've done is point out one fact and then draw two conclusions from it. YOU people are the ones who choose to take the three-year-old approach, pick up your marbles, and go home.


The fact: The final Oldsmobiles, as well as some of other, depending on the year, late '70s and later models, do not have Oldsmobile engines in them. To many people, this is the primary definition of an Oldsmobile. I'm not saying I hold this view. I'm not saying it's the correct view. But it is a common view.


Conclusion #1: This explains why people with final-year Oldsmobiles might experience less than welcoming attitudes from other Oldsmobile people at car shows. Again, I'm not saying this is a good attitude. I certainly do not hold this attitude. I personally think people who hold such views are jerks. But it IS an attitude that is out there.


Conclusion #2: This explains why the later-model and final-year Oldsmobiles haven't and probably never will gain as widespread a level of following as the earlier cars. Again, this is just an opinion, but I believe it is borne out by the facts to date. It has now been almost 10 years since the last Oldsmobiles rolled off the line, and it has been well more than 30 years since the first Oldsmobiles with non-Oldsmobile engines began appearing. If these cars were going to achieve the level of following and excitement the earlier cars have, it would have happened or at least started to happen by now.


I'm not saying these cars don't have a following or don't have a respectable following. What I'm saying is they don't have the same following.


I think this is an interesting area of discussion as it bears on the future of the hobby as the number of available, restorable, 1972 and earlier Cutlasses and 442s decreases, which is inevitable over time.


It's unfortunate that people on here choose to see any commentary like this as a personal insult rather than a valid topic of debate, which it most certainly is. That, however, is your problem, not mine.

Oldsnut71442

Really, YOU people? One guy goes off on you and it is YOU people. I think you need to only look in the mirror

I am a hardcore Olds guy from the 70's and would love every motor to be and Olds but they are not, I deal with it. I am also big on styling which I feel that the final years gave us, that is why I own 3 and soon to be 4 on top of my '71 442.

Those that feel that the motor is the only judge of being an Olds are misguided.

Finally we agree on something.


Like you said, this is your opinion. I will think of this quote when I am at the nationals in Springfield while staring at all the 1980's + Hurst/Olds, Cutlass, Delta's, Toro's and of course the final generation of Olds. Last time I was at an Olds show there were a ton of them.

I am off to the Nats. Yippy !

jaunty75

Great! I'd love to be wrong.

But it's not my experience. I attend local chapter shows, and there might be 80 cars. Ten of them will be post-1980, ten of them will be pre-1960, and the other 60 are in-between, with most of those mid-to-late '60s Cutlasses.