dal442

did a re-core on my brass/copper 4 row radiator a couple of seasons ago. works ok with a pusher fan added in case of being stopped in traffic / train in 90 degree heat. thinking that i should also consider replacing the water pump with a high volume unit....any suggestions on a brand --- or ---what to look for? 455 that was rebuilt completely and de-tuned to 9.5 to 1. 4 speed no A/C it also came to mind to replace the thermostat to a high volume also...
suggestions requested.
dal442

classicmuscle442

Could use water pump for an a/c car.

MDchanic

More volume is always good, but these cars didn't overheat when new with factory components, so why should you need to add anything more?

Do you have an original-type fan and clutch?
Do you have an original fan shroud?

- Eric

70sgeek

Milodon p/n 16285 - HV water pump may be worth a look. I have one on my relatively mild performance build 9.5 comp 350 with stock fan, clutch and shroud. That + a performance 180 t-stat keeps me at or just below 180 all day long in FL heat. I am however also using a 2-core aluminum rad with 1-1/8" cooling tubes.

dal442

thanks for the replies.... just a bit more details-- the reason i am looking at the water pump is because i developed just a very minor leak in the area of where the lower hose connects. i cannot determine whether it's the hose itself or the clamp....or even a possibility a slight leak from the tank.... so, i started to think to replace the radiator with an aluminum oem style look. well, that lead to the questions of whether the stock water pump would push enough fluid to cool properly. i am running a stock fan & clutch --car does not have a radiator shroud - did not come with a shroud. so, it's not an issue of overheating.... just figured that if the radiator is starting to give me problems just to scrap it -- replace --- and so the question of the pump then emerged.
i was informed that the inner tubing of an aluminum radiator is usually half inch larger than the oem brass/copper----so, that's why i began the topic of the water pump in the beginning---- dal442

dal442

70sgeek.....

i am assuming you are using a brass/copper oem radiator ? if so, did everything line up pulley wise ...or did you need to add any shimming pieces / adaptors ?

MDchanic

You mention that you have a 442 with a 9.5:1 455, 4-speed, and no A/C, but nothing else, such as the year.

I cannot speak for every single year and configuration, but it is highly likely that your car DID come with a fan shroud, and that that is the cause of your problem.

As far as changes to radiator and water pump, yes, better ones should cool better, but you need to fix the problem first, or those improvements won't matter (and they are probably not even needed),

- Eric

oldcutlass

There was no stock clutch fan setup that didn't utilize a shroud, your missing a very important component for it to cool properly. If you have a leak at the water pump (weep hole on the bottom) and the hose clamps are tight then your water pump is defective and needs to be replaced.

What temps is your engine running when at idle and when at cruise. What thermostat is installed?

dal442

MDchanic,

its a 70' ----- about the fan shroud....interesting...i've seen a number of 70' 442's without a fan shroud. as a matter of fact the top plate over the radiator does not have any pre-drilled holes to accept a shroud. there are no tabs at the end of the radiator either ---nor at the bottom of the radiator support to attach a shroud.

dal442

oldcutlass,

yesterday, saturday was 74 degree day here in my area. car temp ran 180- 185 at a 60 mph cruise. warmed up to 190- 195 while stopped for a train, utilizing a pusher fan. now if i let the car idle in 90 degree heat--- with the pusher fan running it will crawl up to 210-220. currently using a 160 degree high volume t-stat.
the weep on the pump is showing no indication of leakage, no indication of coolant running down on the lower hose. hose clamps tight...as a matter of fact, i crawled under the car after driving it to check if it is coming from the pump...dry as a bone. only on the radiator support am i showing coolant loss. the small indented valley of the radiator support that runs the length of the support will have an ounce or two of coolant puddled just under where the lower hose connects to the radiator.

rustyroger

Eric and (other) Eric have probably nailed it. You would have to look long and hard to find better advice btw. Find the correct shroud, fit it, while the radiator is out to have its leak fixed have mountings for the shroud installed (or get a radiator with the fittings already there).
You shouldn't need anything but the correct clutch fan if the rest of the engine is in good order and properly tuned.

It must be summer, the annual harvest of overheating and cooling system problems is in full swing!.

Roger.

oldcutlass

Is the bottom of the overflow hose wet when you notice the coolant on the bottom of the core support? You need to either go back to a fixed fan setup or find a shroud and adapt it to your car.

MDchanic

Okay, now that we've got a year, it's possible to check.

The Parts Manual says: "70 F85 V8 C.A.C, H.D. Rad. or Cool ..........402995"

The SPECS Guide says: " Y72 Engine Cooling Equipment, Heavy Duty —
...
N/A with G88, G92, or W30. C60 required with M21."

So, actually, your 1970 non-W30 442 with 455 and no A/C would NOT have come with a fan shroud, unless Y72 was ordered.


Going back to the Parts Manual, we see:

69-70 F85 V8 Y72......... 401797
69-70 F85 350 Eng. OAI.......... 403982
70 3200, 3600, 4200 C.A.C. exc. Y72 or 455 Perf. Eng........... 403982
70 4257-67 455 Perf. Eng. C.A.C.exc. Y72............ 4949861
70 4400, 4800 C.A.C.exc Y72 or O.A.I.............. 4949861
70-71 4400 OAI........... 4949861


SO, If your '70 F85 did not have Heavy Duty Cooling, OAI, or A/C, it DID NOT come with a fan clutch.

Since you said,
we can see where your problem is:
You've got a fan clutch (and, presumably, pulleys and a clutch-type fan) in a non-shroud system.

The fan shroud was always used with a fan and fan clutch of a particular design,
the non-shroud units were used with different fans and pulleys.

So you've either got to get yourself a shroud, or get a fan and pulley setup from a non-shroud motor, and your problem will be solved.

About the leak, I'm not so sure - they can be a real b__ch to find. Puddle in the core support channel does sound like a bad radiator, though.

Good luck!

- Eric


ps: anyone notice the last three digits of the Y72 clutch are "797"?
Those are the same as the super-heavy-duty Hayden clutch number: 2797. Coincidence?

Rocketbrian

In 70 and 71/2, W30s without A/C received a 5.5 inch water pump, a clutch fan and they did not have shrouds. In the case of the 70s, the 5.5 inch pump was the A/C spec pump, while in 71/2, the 5.5 was the mid sized pump used only in the W cars as the A/C cars all had 6" pumps.

MDchanic

Excellent. Thank you.

He didn't say it was or had been (or wasn't) a W30, but this is good to know.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Not saying it was not possible, I have never seen a clutch fan with no shroud.

MDchanic

Brian, having reviewed the Parts Manual entries I posted earlier, I will just note that the manual says what you said, only it says it in its own unique way.

It says '70-'71 4400s with OAI (which means W30, in those years, if I'm not mistaken) all got the 9861 clutch, and since that car is an F85 with a V8, it got the clutch with or without A/C or Y72.

I could look to see which fan assembly it uses, but I have to go up in the attic and move boxes now.

- Eric

joesw31

Just an idea. You may want to try an old Dole thermostat that has the "door" type valve. Oldsmobile used the Dole type thermostats for years.

dal442

oldcutlass,

no, the bottom of the over-flow hose is dry...... to me it looks as if there has never been any overflow of coolant through it --ever.

dal442

eric & eric....

thanks for the comments and advice.....i have had this car since 1997 when i started the restoration. what makes the most sense is, the previous owner may have changed out the fan with a fan/clutch setup.... because again the top plate has no pre-drilled holes to accept a shroud. of course, the radiator support has two tabs on the inside facing the engine, but, i would assume every core support made from 68 thru 72 would have the same tabs., whether the car came with a shroud or not.

again thanks.
dal442

MDchanic

So your car is not a W30, right Dal? Because, if it is, as Brian pointed out, it would have a specific clutch and fan, but no shroud.

If it is not, then it's been messed with (albeit long ago), and that's why you've got a problem.

For a quick fix, I would consider installing a Hayden 2797 clutch, which is super heavy duty, will sound like a Cessna before it warms up, but will pull air like crazy, and likely make up for the other discrepancies until you can find someone (probably on this board) with the parts you need.

Note that if the fan is not moving enough air, the largest radiator available will not cure the problem that you are having.

- Eric

Rocketbrian

If you ever have the opportunity to look at a 72 W30, as they weren't available with A/C, you will see they have a fan clutch, 5.5" water pump with the offset waterpump pulley and no shroud. Just for info purposes, the 5.5" pump moves the fan closer to the rad for better cooling and it allows enough space between the fan blades and the power steering pump centre shaft, otherwise the blade almost hits the shaft.
Actually I just found a picture I had of a 40,000 mile one owner 72W30 and it verifies my findings.
I have put the same parts on my 71 non A/C 442 to improve the cooling at idle. My car was fine on the road with air movement, but the temperature climbed quickly at idle, so I now have the W30 set up. I did have to purchase the offset pulley in order to keep the belts aligned.