Understanding the restoration process and fees

[Artdlr]

Just curious about other folks experiences regarding the restoration process and the costs factors they've experienced...
Not long after I acquired my 55 super 88 from California with 86k on the odometer and in what I considered great condition {for a 54 year old automobile} as it is very nearly in daily driver condition with all the systems intact and working correctly and even looked fine... old and dull paint but complete... she works great. Here's my experience; I sought out advice from many antique car owners within my area about exactly who in Texas was/is considered the top auto restorer. The same name "Jeff Lilly Restorations" of San Antonio surfaced throughout out most of the conversations I had with others who had vehicles in the condition I hoped to get my 55 to. Researched Jeff Lilly restorations and they do indeed do excellent quality work. I made a call to the Lilly staff by telephone and inquired about the process as I was unfamiliar with how it worked. Cannot recall who I spoke with but they informed me in very clear terms that to reach concours level of restoration {with perhaps a few modifications such as an under dash A/C installed, more modern suspension, better braking power etc...} that I should expect to pay $89.00 per hour plus parts. Well... ok, for a skilled tradesperson $89.00 per hour is not unusual… I could manage that and had no beef, after all I charge $150.00 and up per item for appraisal work in the western arts field so his fee’s were not unbelievable. I asked if there was a good time for me to trailer {or drive} the Olds {I'm located 190 miles away in Houston} to the Lilly facility for them to review the car up-close and discuss the level of work that would be required for my particular car. Well... at that point the staff member told me "doesn't matter what level of restoration it needs, it's $89.00 per hour plus parts, we'll call you when it's complete"... I laughed {nervously} and stated "89 per hour plus parts gosh that's kind-of open ended wouldn't you say. Will it take 20 hours 100 hours, 500 hours, 1000 hours 10,000 hours fifty million hours?... I've got loads and loads and loads of money plus the money tree in the backyard but is there no estimate available upon a thorough review by you and your staff?"... to which they replied "we don't handle any project with a budget attached". He continued to explain "look... we cannot know what your car will need with-out tearing it apart first, only then can we ascertain the level of resto it'll need… and no restorer of any consequence or quality will give you a firm bid because like us they cannot determine the level of work that your car will need without a total breakdown of all aspects of the car first" I explained the trepidation I had with an open-ended fee schedule for this project and expressed my bewilderment with the possibility the car and it's restoration could theoretically cost in the hundreds of thousands.. to which he said "could be!". I told them I thought with a close-up review of the car by their staff they would probably be able to determine the car was in very good condition overall and would probably not need “every aspect” to be repaired or replaced. He became less interested in attempting to further my inquiry, reiterated the 89 per hour plus parts so I summed up the conversation and we said our good-bye’s. He did ask what the ultimate goal was for the car in my life and I expressed that I hope to have it for the rest of my days {I'm 45}. I have no plans to sell the car or use it as a money maker. After my tele call with this fellow I thought surely there must be a way to determine the level of hours a restoration project will require {or at least ball park the estimate} by simple experience in the field. Having no experience in the auto restoration field and not a mechanic by trade or hobby I was a bit put-off by the vagueness of the proposed process. I began to wonder if all the “reality shows” concerning auto building/restoring have made “rock-stars” of auto restorers and gosh perhaps we should feel “lucky” to have an audience with them. If this is auto-restoring 2010 style perhaps my beloved 88 will remain dull and a bit clunky but at least I’ll not incur wacky high debt to satisfy a restorers ego trip. My questions are this… As a rule is the process of restoration for automobiles this open-ended and vague? Is there a “check-list” of things to look for and questions to ask when interviewing auto restorers for the lay-man? Does anyone have experience with an auto restorer in the Houston community that produces top level work?
I’ve visited with several other local “auto body” shops and many want to chop it, lower it, make many changes that would enhance the modern look for the car but may not be what I ultimately want. Just curious about what others have experienced when they restored their car.

[cutlassjoe]

I will try to shed some light and make sense of it. I am in the process of restoring my car, and yes it is overwhelming. When I got ready to have my car done, I did research just like you. I called the shops and visited (without the car) to see what they were working on. I asked a lot of questions, and made sure that the person who did my car, was on the same page as me, as far as what I wanted and to what level. Most shops should be able to put the car on a hoist and poke around. The shop I went to JH Restorations in Windsor, was familiar with the GM A body, and knew where the problem spots were on these cars. After they crawled over it for three hours they did give me an estimate. It was agreed that this was an estimate, and there may be other issues when they get into it. Well, there was, but they worked with me, and have been very fair and open. I hope this helps. I know you will get a lot of replies, and help.

[Artdlr]

Thanks cutlassjoe. Your experience is more along the lines of what I had envisioned as part of the process for the restoration. Funny thing... As a {somewhat new} member of the local Olds club I even asked around the club members about the process and again recieved a rather blurry explaination of the process. Not much good advice was dispensed. But then again most of the Olds club members here are very hands-on and do-it-yourself types of fellows to which I am not. To give you an idea of the "luck" I have with engine repair/maintenance... I recently attempted to replace the windshield washer hose on the 55 due to dry-rot. Well... I managed to bump a water hose of some type and broke it off... again, dry-rot. Tried to fix the broken water hose and all of the sudden the car wouldn't start... dammit... it worked fine before the water hose broke but for no apparent reason now it won't start. Geez... my luck with engine work!. Was told when I was 16 by a career mechanic while I was pretending to play super-hero mechanic on my 73 Pontiac Grand Am and broke off a spark plug inside the block "keep your damm hands off engines you idiot!"... Heeded his advice and walked away from the mechanical aspect of engines. I know enough to know when I am being led astray but do not have the mental skill/patience needed to "fix" motors. I will gladly rely and pay for the skill of others for that. But the experience I had with top level restorers seemed a bit wonky to me... I wondered if this is just the way it is. Thanks again.

[442scotty]

I have seen Lillys web site...nice work. I can see how you could easily spend 60 or 80 Grand there. Without doing a lot of work yourself its not unreasonable to spend 25 Grand for just a nice job including mechanical work. I have done most of the work on one of my 65 cutlass's and Im into it for about 15G never mind what I paid for the car. And I have put at least a couple hundred hours into it over 7 years. Learned as I went along and I am still learning.

Instead of spending 13G on paint and body I decided to put the money towards equipment and materials and learn how to do it myself... had to redo some things along the way but it turned out pretty good. Saved about 8G and I now have all the tools and had fun learning. Worked the same way with the mechanical stuff...saved thousands, learned a lot and had a lot of fun.

Im 56 now so you have lots of time to try it. Never too old to learn.

[rocketraider]

Reputations sometimes make people arrogant, but most restorers of any caliber at all will tell you "time and materials". Just make sure they document every hour and item spent on the car.

What you want is to make sure the restorer 1) is familiar enough with your car to restore it accurately and 2) understands that the end result WILL be dictated by you, and not what HE wants to do. Too many people just say fix it and I'll write the check when it's done, and get a rude surprise when something turns out different than what was envisioned. You also have to consider whether the money spent is more than the car would ultimately be worth if you had to sell.

I will say this much. If the car is a nice original, I would leave it alone except for maintenance items.

[Willidog]

I think that they should be able to look at the car and give you a ball park figure and then if they find anything along the way they could call you and amend the contract. I guess the people they have for clients don't have to worry about money. I did all the work on my car myself with the exception of body/paint and upholstery work. I had my car down to bare metal on most panels so the shop knew there were no surprises waiting under the paint. I have limited funds so my main goal was to get the car to the point that I could drive and enjoy it. If I ever hit the lottery I can take it back in and have a show quality body and paint job on it. For right now however, it's a good 5 footer that is all there and I can enjoy it. I guess what I am saying is that it's all in what you can afford and what you want.

Keith

[gearheads78]

Lilly = some of the best of the best work I have seen = if you have to ask how much you probably can't afford it. Real easy to tie up 100K + with those guys

[stevengerard]

I'm in a restoration expense nightmare myself, didn't matter that I got an estimate things just kept adding up. I have spoken to many folks about this and they have said the same thing - the initial estimate always seems to double or triple. In the end the estimate is just an estimate and they know once the car is apart you either spend what it takes to complete it or they own your car. I'm sure many shops are better at estimating than others or more willing to work with folks than others but I'm convinced there are two "main types" of shops, one that says if you need to ask then go somewhere else and the others low-ball to get you in and then just keepo adding up the hours. I had estimated from 5k to 100K

[Bluevista]

Unless you want to compete in a Pebble Beach type concours d'elegance (if they invite you), or there is something really special about the car and it just has to be that one restored, it's way less expensive to buy another professionally restored car for pennies on the dollar and let somebody else take the major hit.
They are one of the best in the country but If you wanted to spend the full resto cost for one done by a place like that you would have a fleet of real nice cars and a garage to hold them.
The age-old adage "If you have to ask how much you can't afford it" should be right below the name on the sign out front of places like that.

[gh5168]

Artdlr,

Hello there I live in Pearland, I am doing my own restoration and even with me doing myself the cost adds up. I am restoring a 72 442. I just put the body back on the frame last weekend and also put the engine and transmission back in. I dont know if you have tried these the two Restoration shops in Houston. But you might want to Give Classic Cars of Houston a call @ 713 838 9700, I have gone by there several times and they really do great work.They are located over in the Bellaire area @ 6336 Alder. You may also want to try Gulf Coast Hot Rod's @ 713 227 7639 and they are located @ 205 Roberts on the outskirts of downtown Houston. That place is top notch and they do a very high end restoration. I would suggest instead of calling either one of them go by and take a look at what they do.

Gary

[Artdlr]

Good Morning folks...
Thanks for the dialog and illumination on the subject, very, very interesting.
gearheads78... I agree with you on the fact Lilly produces some of the best work I have compared. Since I've acquired the Olds I've begun to really pay attention to the "restorations" of cars I see at local shows and can see the differences in qualities. Some are more evident some are more subtle. The statement is true and correct; "you get what you pay for" I suppose. But... I must admit I am having a hard time convincing myself that the "show quality" cars I see at the various shows are all 80, 90, 100k cars but perhaps they are... I am rapidly gaining respect for the "Don't touch the car" signs I see at car shows, now I understand why!
After building a business for nearly 25 years the business model of investing tremendous amounts of resources into a project only to never realize a sensible return is stagering. Not that I want to profit from the venture but on the other hand I don't care to invest 50k, 80k only to have a market strength of 20k or perhaps 30 to 35k in a great economy.
Hello Bluevista... Excellent advice on the acquisition of an already completed resto car. I looked into that when I was searching for my Olds and reviewed several that seemed really nice and were priced in the 25 to 35k range. Of course there was no up-close inspection so perhaps the cars could not be considered "concours" but they looked very nice from the photos I recieved. Which is what kind-of set me to thinking that restoring a car like the Olds I finally purchased would level out in the 15k to 25k range, still expensive but managable. So when I recieved the input that "ohhh, this might get to 50k to 70k to possibly 100k blew me away. Why would the sellers of the cars I looked at for 25 to 35k sell them so low... Hell, the sellers should do the math and realize that a lay-man will either pay {through the nose} for the finished car or {pay through the nose} for the resto project... either way it's gonna cost... especially if you're not a do-it-yourselfer! Like you believe I do want to have the car restored and restored well but I'd like to have some budget left over for fuel, the garage, the insurance etc...
Hey GH5168... Thanks for touching base. Perhaps we can meet one day. As 442scotty said perhaps I need to learn the process myself {kind of like you're doing} and give it a try. As I said I am not mechanically inclined but for 50 to 100k I'll learn!
Thanks for the leads on the local shops. I'll give them a look-over and perhaps show them my Olds. Are the shows that come to the astro-arena like the auto-rama any good for dialoging with restorers? I've seen a show locally {northside I think} called the "nifty fifties" show... are you familiar with that gathering? It's informal, located in a Super Target parking lot I believe. Thought perhaps there might be a few local restorers there as well. Thanks again for the leads... i'll suss them out.

[gh5168]

I cant say that there are restoration guys out there at the astro arena. I have been out there before but I think most of those cars were done by professionals. On Friday nights at the Home Depot on 518 a bunch of guys gather to show off their vehicles. I would like to me meet you also. Pm me and I will give you my #

[gearheads78]

One thing to consider if you you are starting from scratch is how much money in equipment you are willing to buy to do a restoration yourself. I've collected 50-60K in tools over the last 7-8 years and I don't have a 1/4 of what a real restoration shop has. I plan on building as many cars as I have time for before I die so it will spead out over many cars and years.

If you only plan on building this one car it might not be worth doing yourself. If you plan on making this a new hobby / addiction then hop in the rabbit hole with us. Just understand there might not be a bottom to the hole

[Artdlr]

Hey Gearheads78, excellent advice on the concept of doing it yourself as far as tools and equipment are concerned. Had'nt really thought out what the costs for just the equipment would be let alone the room for this kind of project. I've got a three car garage with a space dedicated just to the Olds but would be spreading out into the other bays I assume if I really kicked off the resto project at home. The Mrs. has her benz in one bay and the remaining bay is dedicated to my two motorcycles. Hell there aren't even any tools in the garage... don't really have any to speak of. Basic house maintenance tools and the like but no auto working tools. So I'd really be starting from scratch. Will do some deeper research for a home set-up before I decide which direction I go. Thanks for the perspective.

[D.Mac]

Artdlr,
I've been restoring/repairing old cars for years (my own vehicles), and the fact is, no matter how good they look before you start there's always lots of problems that crop-up as you tear into them. An estimate for a total resto would be tough for anyone to do, I would think. As several here have mentioned, the shop you spoke with is noted for top-notch high-end work, that is geared to winning prizes at national car shows. I think you might have better luck with estimated costs, (and cost control) if you broke-up the work into smaller sections and maybe went to less well known, but still quality, shops. For example, have the engine rebuilt as one job, have the front suspension rebuilt, upholstry etc. Also you would not have your car apart for a year, or however long. Also you need to consider just how far you want to go with your resto, are you trying to win concours, or do you just want a nicely restored car that runs and drives well- there is a big difference. If indeed you have a good solid car, maybe a frame-off resto is overkill. I've had guys at the alignment shop and muffler shop tell me "wow, you could eat off this chassis", but after I hit the road how many people ever see most of it? (not many)
Doug.

[Jamesbo]

1st

Decide what you want. Concours restoration, daily driver etc.

IMHO a frame off concours restoration is buying a full time job even after it's finished. There is always somethng that has to be done to keep it at the"finihsed level' Even it it's as simple as restoring paper stickers after the get soiled.

I also agree with breaking it down into different projects. engine, suspension, interior, body/paint etc.

99.99999% of people wouldn't know a concours restoration if they saw one. But they do know a good Paint job and nice interior finish.

Candidly, I do not enjoy my frame off restored 69 H/O as much as some of my other cars. It just isn't as much fun to jump in and take off [worry about rain/ repaving of roads etc.]

In the end, it's really up to you. Good luck.

[Artdlr]

Hey D.mac and Jamesbo,
Love the idea of seperating the different aspects out to different houses, never considered that. For some reason I was under the impression that restorers wanted the whole job and not just a part. Plus the idea of breaking the job into aspects is appealing from the standpoint of use-ability... You're correct in the assumption that I'd prefer not to tie up the car for a year or longer while a deep restoration is performed.
So...When I dialog with a body shop do I tell them not to worry about the motor {in specific} as that will be attended to by a different shop???... That won't piss-off the body shop? Do motors need to be removed from the car completely to paint the "under-hood" area or can it be done with the motor in-place?
I'm definately not looking for an award winner in the Olds, just a beautifully restored, reliable car that will have every advantage of modern knowledge and technology while remaining as true as possible the original Olds 55 88. Even after a restoration without an invite I would probably not show the car for competition. I would probably drive the car to local shows and meets on Saturday nights but no pressure for competition. I just want to feel it's the best level of restoration I could manage. Thanks again for the perspectives.

[Jamesbo]

Around here most shops don't do everything "in house" some farm out interiors, some paint, some engine [depending on what you want done to the engine]

If it were me. I'd hang out at some shows and ask some questions. Most people are glad to tell ya "Joe is the best GM interior guy I know." or "Fred's a *&$**(&*& when it comes to painting"

That would be a good start. One stop shopping can get expensive.

IMHO what you need is

1] Good paint and body man for a bare metal paint job plus any body work
2] Interior company
3] The mechanical and the suspension work can more than likely done by any compitent garage.
4] Parts source or sources
5] rechromeing company

Sorta in reverse order

1] get the mechanical done [ If the engine comes out paint it.]
2] take it to the body shop [removed chrome]
3] Have the chrome redone while the body work gets done [takes the longest]
4] Take your new good running freshly painted car to the interior shop

Voila

[Yes that's an over simplification of the process]


I think you will enjoy the process more by being involved, even it it's only picking up parts or taking parts to be rechromed etc. Plus you can pace the work check up on things and manage expenditures.

[Artdlr]

Awesome Jamesbo!
Love the breakdown and schedule for the project... exactly what I hoped to learn from those who have gone before me. What's kind of cool about the set-up you describe is that it's not so overwhelming {when done in stages} either financially or learning curve wise. Perhaps if the different tradesmen will allow I can sort-of tag along and learn the process as they implement steps in thier restoration aspect. Not that I have an aspirations to actually do any mechanical works but it would certianly be nice to understand how the different aspects of the process work. As you recommend I will look into the local shows more closely and some of the larger shows in the area for dialog with show-car owners to get thier recommendations about the different tradesmen in the Houston community.
Thanks again for the guidance.

[hialeah56]

Hey, Artdlr sorry to get a bit of topic, but do you have any pictures of the 55? BTW Jamesbo said it best, you will enjoy your restoration more taking it to the individual shops yourself. One thing he fail to mention is make sure you have someone competent look over your entire wiring. I've seen too many nice cars go up in flames due to ignoring the factory wiring

[justinj]

If you're not in the least the 'hands-on' type, I would definitely suggest that you look for a vehicle that's done already, unless you have the means to spend top dollar for a resto.

One of the biggest mistakes I've made in my own restoration is not buying a more 'completed' car. I was offered something that was way further along (from the same seller), but I was being stubborn and a bit overconfident in what I could get done in a reasonable amount of time. This was a year and a half ago, and if I was offered the same (better) car for the same price difference today, I would take it, even though I have many hours of my time invested.

I have gained lots of experience as a result, but if you're not all that interested in learning how to do it yourself, this isn't a factor. I would seriously consider unloading what you have and just purchasing something closer to what you want.

-Justin

[rcorrigan5]

My restoration process was pretty much an open checkbook, plus a lot of my time. I took the car to the best mechanic and the best classic car paint and body shop in the area. Things were discovered along the way that varied the cost of what the original thought process was. The paint and body shop originally said they thought it would be around $10K for the final appearance I wanted, but that escalated with rust found in the psngr side quarter and the bottom of the trunk lid closest to the bumper, plus a complete replacement of the driver side quarter. Here's the final break-down:
New parts I needed to buy: $8000
Mechanical restoration, stem to stern: $12,000
Body work and paint: $15,000
My time: tons
The final product: Priceless!
If I had to do it again, I would. In fact, I will have to someday. There's a '69 vert in the shop that needs to be finished!
Randy C.

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by hialeah56

Hey, Artdlr sorry to get a bit of topic, but do you have any pictures of the 55? BTW Jamesbo said it best, you will enjoy your restoration more taking it to the individual shops yourself. One thing he fail to mention is make sure you have someone competent look over your entire wiring. I've seen too many nice cars go up in flames due to ignoring the factory wiring

Good point I had one catch fire when it was deleivered to my house. Luckily I had a fire extinguisher handy. Some Yahoo ran the positive wire to the starter right over the exhaust manifold.

[Artdlr]

Evening Hialeah56,
I do indeed have some photos of the 55 beginning with the day it was delivered to me from Ca. stacked on the auto transport. Looking out the window of my office I recognized the car sitting on top of the delivery truck so I hauled-ass to the parking lot and watched the make the delivery. The Mrs. had presence of mind to take a few pic's but we used a film camera instead of a digital so I'll need to scan the delivery pic's then I'll begin posting pic's of the 88 beginning with the delivery. Although I am not a picture taker by any stretch I do have a few pic's of the Olds stored on a hardrive at my office but... the dang hardrive siezed about three months ago and remains frozen shut. I've consulted tech companies about accessing the data on the drive, Can be done for 600 to 800 dollars... So for now, until the budget allows it sits on the desk like the black obelisque {like the one seen on 2001 A Space Oddessy!}. Sometimes I feel like the monkey who hits the obelisque too!
Will make a point to back the Olds out of the garage this weekend the snap a few fresh pic's of it... Inside and out. I am keen to see the plate under the hood engine area that was mentioned in another thread discussing the difference between the 88 and the super 88. Hope the learn something new about the car!
Tons of Thanks for the heads-up on the wiring... Never even crossed my mind that it could be a problem. Should I install a compact hand-held fire extinguisher in the trunk just in case? If so, what's a good type/brand to handle car fires?
justinj...I like your thought process. I did but a "complete and running" car, I made sure of that when I was deciding which one to land on. Some folks think it needs a resto some don't, that's how close it is to being just fine as-is. But... I have seen the cars that have had Lilly quality restorations done and that set the bar for me, that's what I would like to see for my 88. But as you say... if it's too much trouble for me as a supreme novice and waaaaayyy to costly for me to handle I may seek to sell or trade the Olds to a dealer that specializes in already complete units and settle for that. Good advice though...Thanks.
rcorrigan55... Excellent restoration on your convertible. Love the super clean lines and rich clear paintwork. Thanks for the estimates and price lines. Are there any before photos you've got? It might give me perspective to see what condition your car was in before the resto to compare to mine before a resto. How long ago was your resto started/completed? Thanks again for the pic's. I'll get some of mine {before restoration} loaded here soon, this will give many here on the forum a better perspective of what I am dealing with.

[hialeah56]

It never hurts to have a fire extinguisher ready just in case. What you want to look for is something that has a "B", and "C" rating at a minimum. This covers chemicals, such as gas and oils found in your car (B) as well as electrical (C). Although most fire extiguishers now a days are "ABC" rated which also covers wood cloth and paper fires (A). I'm installing one like this under my seat
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHROM...Q5fAccessories
by the way this is an ABC rated

[Artdlr]

Hialeah56... Thanks for the lead to the fire extinguishers. Like the way the chrome version looks, would make a nice fit into the interior of the car. Are they re-chargable? I have a company that visits my office once per year on a schedule to update and tag all the fire extinguishers we've got in the gallery. It's part of the annual fire inspection process. If the little extinguishers {for the car} are re-chargable I will add it to the Olds and add it to the list of extinguishers for yearly inspection and updating. Are they available through Fusicks or the local Auto Zone or O'Rielly?

[TK-65]

If you want the definition of over restoration, take a look at a car Jeff Lilly does. The 66 442 on his website is no where close to a restoration. Restoring means to make it like it was when new. His cars are perfect, no waves or ripples anywhere. Hell, he makes the bumpers lazer straight. A resto at his shop could top 200,000 dollars easily.

If a top notch shop tells you to bring it and they will call when its done, that means you cant afford it.

Either drive yours as is and enjoy it or buy one already done.

[hialeah56]

I'm bought mine from a local truck chrome shop, and it's rechargable. You would have to ask that prior to buying yours.

[Artdlr]

TK-65,
After the consensus from the folks on this forum I have a whole new level of appreciation for the "concours" cars I see at the local "Wheels and Keels" posh auto and boat show here at Lakewood Marina in Clear Lake, Texas. If in fact {as many have said here in this thread} the folks who show at shows such as the Keels and Wheels have invested high five figures or even 6 figures into thier cars I must respect thier dedication to the idea of first rate auto restoration. Until now {that I have some confirmation} I was unaware of the super-high costs for this level of resto. I can assure you most of the ladies and gents at shows like Keels and Wheels don't get thier hands dirty doing the work themselves, so they must have invested the dollars... Wow... You go boy!
From this stand point I will most likely leave Olds in the condition it's in and adjust the things that need attention immediately all the while working toward a level of resto I can both afford and be satisfied with. From my perspective Jamesbo's idea to "farm-out" the different aspects makes the most sense and seems the most reasonable cost management system.