TH400 Serial Number Plate

[coltsneckbob]

The ID plate on my trans broke off. I don't have it anymore. The stamped numbers on the left side of trans (just above pan) match the engine and VIN mumbers and these match the documentation I have (e.g. Window sticker). There is also some numbers cast into the bell housing and the rear where the shaft connects (but I don't know what they mean)So anyway, I really have no issue with being able to represent the car as a matching w-30 OW TH-400.

However since I am try to slowly restore the car to coucours show I would like to get a plate. Does anyone know where/how I can get a new plate made? I imagine that people do make such things, but have been unsuccessful in Googling a place.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by coltsneckbob

The ID plate on my trans broke off. I don't have it anymore. The stamped numbers on the left side of trans (just above pan) match the engine and VIN mumbers and these match the documentation I have (e.g. Window sticker). There is also some numbers cast into the bell housing and the rear where the shaft connects (but I don't know what they mean)So anyway, I really have no issue with being able to represent the car as a matching w-30 OW TH-400.

However since I am try to slowly restore the car to coucours show I would like to get a plate. Does anyone know where/how I can get a new plate made? I imagine that people do make such things, but have been unsuccessful in Googling a place.

The Parts Place is selling unmarked TH400 trans tags (including OW tags) on ebay.

[stevengerard]

they do and they come in a delco sealed bag. You just need to stamp in the correct numbers - which I would like to know what size and type of font was used

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by stevengerard

they do and they come in a delco sealed bag. You just need to stamp in the correct numbers - which I would like to know what size and type of font was used

And, of course, this means that a "numbers matching" OW trans is no longer "proof" that a car is a true W-30...

[coltsneckbob]

Joe,
I guess that depends. Since the trans still has the last 6 digits of the VIN stamped into it and since one still had the window sticker and build sheet then it is pretty hard to deny that the trans is not the original.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by coltsneckbob

Joe,
I guess that depends. Since the trans still has the last 6 digits of the VIN stamped into it and since one still had the window sticker and build sheet then it is pretty hard to deny that the trans is not the original.

Sorry, I was not suggesting that yours was not original. My frustration is that a numbers-matching OW trans was considered fairly solid "proof" of a real W-30. With the availability of blank OW tags, anyone can fake a numbers-matching trans.

[coltsneckbob]

Joe,
I suppose that is true. However, the ID tag is exactly that a tag that is rivited onto the trans. Easy to replace. The stamps in the metal of the trans are not easy to fake. I dunno if the trans was all there was to the w-30. I have have the right carb numbers, the engine number matcha....the manifold matches....the exhaust manifold is correct. It is hard to keep a lot of little things together for 40 years. That said one can never really be 100% certain....unless you are the original owner

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by coltsneckbob

Joe,
I suppose that is true. However, the ID tag is exactly that a tag that is rivited onto the trans. Easy to replace. The stamps in the metal of the trans are not easy to fake. I dunno if the trans was all there was to the w-30. I have have the right carb numbers, the engine number matcha....the manifold matches....the exhaust manifold is correct. It is hard to keep a lot of little things together for 40 years. That said one can never really be 100% certain....unless you are the original owner

Again, my last comment doesn't apply to you at all. My whole point was that the VIN derivative doesn't prove that the trans came out of a W-30 UNLESS one has supporting documentation on the rest of the car, as you apparently do.

Instead, someone who has a numbers matching trans for a non-W-30 442 COULD buy one of these new OW tags (along with red inner fenders and the correct-year intake and heads) and claim that the car was a real W-30. Again, I'm not in any way suggesting that you are doing this. I am only pointing out that the availability of blank OW tags makes it easier for an unscrupulous person to fake a W-30.

[coltsneckbob]

Joe,

Yes, I undetstood that. I was not in anyway insulted by your statement because it is indeed true. And of course you have no way to know I actually do have the docs (but I do really .

I do think however that the trans tag is a bit over rated as proof of a W-30 OW trans.

First of all it is held on by a rather small rivet. The tag itself is fully exposed to the elements and will get bent, rusted, abraided over the course of years simply by driving and probably maintenance guys who are not careful. So, reading it can be impossible in some cases. The fact that is is so easy to remove and replace is another concern.

I feel even if you had such a tag on a trans I would view it as only a good, but not the most important piece of evidence. Most of the Olds trans had a large stencil on the bell housing which was the 2 letter code. My car has it and it is OW. Now of course this is also something one could put on the trans, but there are 2 things that make that tricky. The first is that it is my impression you can't get to that part of the trans housing to stencil without dropping the trans. OK, granted not really all that hard. The second is that getting the right "aged" look is something else entirely. I don't doubt it can be done, but it is at least as difficult as getting a fake metal plate.

To me the best test is the code stamped into the metal just above the pan. It would be extremely difficult to change that code and not have it be detected. Now granted all that code does is match the trans to the engine and of course to the VIN, but even without docs you know you have an original set. Then with build sheets, window sticker and other assorted docs (with VIN on them) that indicate W-30 you have pretty iron clad proof.

What I don't know about is the internals of a OW trans and whether there is anything inside that would also substantiate the trans's origin and type. I would think there would be something....right?

In the end I think if I were interested in selling (which I am not). I could probably satisfy anyone I have a real W-30 (Russo and Steele were convinced). However, since I am looking to take my car from show to concours level I need every little (stinkin, LOL) tag, label, screw and whatever to be on there and correct. Thus, my quest continues!!!

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by coltsneckbob

I do think however that the trans tag is a bit over rated as proof of a W-30 OW trans.

First of all it is held on by a rather small rivet. The tag itself is fully exposed to the elements and will get bent, rusted, abraided over the course of years simply by driving and probably maintenance guys who are not careful. So, reading it can be impossible in some cases. The fact that is is so easy to remove and replace is another concern.

My point exactly, however until recently, replacement OW tags were not readily available.

To me the best test is the code stamped into the metal just above the pan. It would be extremely difficult to change that code and not have it be detected. Now granted all that code does is match the trans to the engine and of course to the VIN, but even without docs you know you have an original set. Then with build sheets, window sticker and other assorted docs (with VIN on them) that indicate W-30 you have pretty iron clad proof.

What I don't know about is the internals of a OW trans and whether there is anything inside that would also substantiate the trans's origin and type. I would think there would be something....right?

You're talking about the VIN-derivative, right? The problem is that the VIN derivative is that it would only prove that the trans came out of a 442, not a W-30. Since all the W-30 parts bolt on, and there is nothing unique about a W-30 block (which is where the VIN derivative is located), the VIN derivative stamping alone is not useful. The VIN of the car will not indicate it's a W-30 unless you have a 1972.

[coltsneckbob]

Joe,

I think on the second point we are also in agreement. I didn't know it was called a VIN-derivative, but absolutely all it does is match the car's VIN (last 6 digits) and the engine derivative. In fact I think without the first few digits of VIN you can't even say it was a 442. However, with the right documents, which have the entire VIN, I think that constitutes pretty incontrovertible evidence of a W-30. At least to my way of thinking better then a silly rivetted on metal tag.

However, I am still wondering if there is something internal, either a stamping or specific parts, that would be a sure fire test to prove the trans was an OW.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by coltsneckbob

However, with the right documents, which have the entire VIN, I think that constitutes pretty incontrovertible evidence of a W-30. At least to my way of thinking better then a silly rivetted on metal tag.

The problem is that rarely do people have ANY other documents, especially since build sheets were not typically left in Lansing cars. This is why it is to difficult to prove if a car is a real W-30. As I noted, prior to the ready availability of blank OW tags, a numbers-matching OW trans USED to be the best "proof" you were going to get. Now even that is suspect. That was my only point from the beginning.

Yes, there are internal differences in the OW trans, mainly additional clutch plates and valve body changes. Again, all of those can be added to any TH400.

[coltsneckbob]

Interesting.

Well, I guess anything can be faked. I do have several pieces of documentation. Including as I previously mentioned window sticker and salesman's order. I did call the dealer and they confirmed that the named salesmen did work there at the time. Since the window and sales order match have a VIN that matches car and all numbers on car match.....plus that all options per sticker are indeed on car I can only assume my car is real (I am third owner). In order to fake the engine, trans, body code plate, carb, exhaust and options it would cost a fortune.....probably more then I paid for the car.

OK, enough......now you've got me second guessing myself!!!!!! I think I just want to enjoy driving it for now !!!!!!!

But, seriously good discussion!!

[stevengerard]

Yes, this was one of the last of the more difficult things to replicate. I too have a tag that is worn down to next to nothing, I can still see an "O" stamped into it but no "W" or "G" and the paint is almost all off except for the "O" on the left side. I'm one of those folks who have no documentation but almost all the "W" stuff (F-heads, red inner fender wells, manifold, carb, emblems, hood, mirrors, even the full W-27 housing - though as Joe says it can all be bolted on. I used to like the fact that the manifold was not reproduced and then a year after they came out I popped a leak because mine warped and is now too thin to mill again - I am now happy they have replica's. I'll keep the original in a box but rather pay a third of the price than risk buying a used one or NOS one that may be cracked or warped. So to change the trans tag or not - I don't know. As coltsneckbob says it would be very difficult or near impossible financially to add all these parts even 20 years ago - especially the rear-end, I know they are around but have never seen another one.