307 engines

[380 Racer]

On a SS head the volume has to stay the same, shapes are definately not anywhere near a factory one.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by 380 Racer

........ shapes are definitely not anywhere near a factory one.

Thanks for the clarification.

Norm

[83hurstguy]

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Allowed by class rules, not particularly expensive, and (spring tensions, notwithstanding) desirable mods, for a street engine.

When you are playing with multiple seat angles, "not particularly expensive" doesn't really apply any more if you are experimenting. Seen it done in the Pure Stock racing classes too.

Stock size valves required in all stock classes. Super stock, as Nick said, only requires the port to be "stock sized" as a maximum volume.

[gmrocket]

some of the info on here about my 307 is a little off.

peak hp was well over 400,, 439 at 6000 to be exact&432 ftlbs at 4600. compression ratio is 10.38:1 hey J in chicago, what the heck is a BT?

some info below so you can descide if the 307 is ok to build

Dick Millers 350(364.7 actual) olds in 2002 had a combined score of 2079.6 . it had fully worked edelbrock heads, 11:1 compression,two point higher octane at 93.

Dick Millers 403(408.2 actual) in 2004 had a combined score of 2198. it had fully worked bulldog heads,solid roller cam, victor intake, way more compression.

my 307(316) scored 2279.3,,,peak TQ per cube was better than both. both of those motors were high dollar entries.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by 83hurstguy

When you are playing with multiple seat angles, "not particularly expensive" doesn't really apply any more ........

The term is subjective, and R&D is always expensive, but these guys already have a handle on what works, and what does not.

Regardless, your point is well taken.

Norm

[83hurstguy]

Originally Posted by gmrocket

some of the info on here about my 307 is a little off.

peak hp was well over 400,, 439 at 6000 to be exact&432 ftlbs at 4600. compression ratio is 10.38:1 hey J in chicago, what the heck is a BT?

some info below so you can descide if the 307 is ok to build

Dick Millers 350(364.7 actual) olds in 2002 had a combined score of 2079.6 . it had fully worked edelbrock heads, 11:1 compression,two point higher octane at 93.

Dick Millers 403(408.2 actual) in 2004 had a combined score of 2198. it had fully worked bulldog heads,solid roller cam, victor intake, way more compression.

my 307(316) scored 2379.3,,,my peak TQ per cube was better than both. both of those motors were high dollar entries.

Do you mind revealing an estimated budget on this thing? That motor was seriously kick azz.

[83hurstguy]

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

The term is subjective, and R&D is always expensive, but these guys already have a handle on what works, and what does not.

Regardless, your point is well taken.

Norm

agreed. They are much smarter than me...

[gmrocket]

Luke, my initial budget was $3500.00 but i ended up just over $4000.00 this includes stuff that really isnt part of the actual engine itself like mufflers&headers, complete ignition system air filter&assembly, flywheel.

the engine core was $50.00

there were additional cost to do the EMC like the dyno session, shipping parts accross the border, shipping the engine to ohio, TQ plate i made to fit the small bore etc

i do almost all my own work&didnt do things that were not necessary,,no block decking, i just ordered them to fit the existing deck, no line hone etc

[83hurstguy]

Originally Posted by gmrocket

Luke, my initial budget was $3500.00 but i ended up just over $4000.00 this includes stuff that really isnt part of the actual engine itself like mufflers&headers, complete ignition system air filter&assembly, flywheel.

the engine core was $50.00

there were additional cost to do the EMC like the dyno session, shipping parts accross the border, shipping the engine to ohio, TQ plate i made to fit the small bore etc

i do almost all my own work&didnt do things that were not necessary,,no block decking, i just ordered them to fit the existing deck, no line hone etc

That's incredible. Once again... awesome job. Appreciate all the info you have shared about it as well. Is it headed into your 442?

[m_tanner_75]

Originally Posted by rccktmn2

I have to disagree. If you've seen the popular hot rodding engine masters challenge, this year there was a 307 olds with cast iron 5a heads running almost 400 hp with a solid cam. The 307 is worth building if you want the stock appearance of the block and numbers.

Holy Schnikes! Does anyone know which issue this was?

[88 coupe]

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng.../06/index.html

Norm

[gmrocket]

http://blogs.popularhotrodding.com/6...nge/index.html

dyno sheet is in feb 09 popular hot rodding&engine is also on the cover

[easytobedead]

'434.8 hp (5,900 rpm) is so impressive. It’s also a visually stunning engine that I think would look sweet under the hood of a mid-‘80s Cutlass.'

hehhehe i want it!

[462rocket]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

Of course, if you swapped the heads AND the manifold, you'd be fine.

So were di you find that cross flow olds intake "the one thats in your picture"

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by 462rocket

So were di you find that cross flow olds intake "the one thats in your picture"

It is a factory experimental piece from the late 1960s that I bought at the Pomona swap meet in the early 1980s.

[Joeypete]

It's amazing they could do that with a 307! I agree it's kind of a turd when it comes to "performance" but you have to remember it was built to be just an adequate, reliable, boring 80's engine...LOL. It was basically the 3800 V6 of the 80's...and as good as the 3800 is, it's not that exciting either.

I LOVE the 307, it will last forever if you take care of it and is easy to work on. I'm a stock kinda guy...really "square" when it comes to that. I'm also not into peeling out performance either so it works just fine for me.

[gmrocket]

that crappy little 307 will be getting a crazy solid roller cam, 11.5 to 1 comp, a victor, more head work&a few other tricks for the 09 challenge. i hope it dont splode

[Warhead]

Dale, these kids were obviously quite passionate about their 307 stuff, and that is good to see. I would hope that you could give them an accurate price of what it would take YOU to duplicate that for THEM, or what it really would cost them to attain their goals.

I also would not mind seeing you do a set of good heads like that for a beefed 403, and show those numbers. JMO

Good luck in the next EMC challenge.
Keep up the good work.
Jim in Phoenix.

[380 Racer]

Like Jim indicated, you obviously didn't include your time in the $4000 pricetag. You had to have quite a few hours in those heads alone. Not sure what all you have but I'll bet a few machines at your disposal as well.
Regardless.......good job!

[84 rocket]

I would say as a customer to an engine shop you could pay 10,000 for a smallblock to make over 400 horses.. As a machinist I could do it for 5,000 in parts alone if going top dollar , I have a 69 olds 350 in the makings now and could get 400 hp easy and for about 2000

[gmrocket]

Originally Posted by Warhead

Dale, these kids were obviously quite passionate about their 307 stuff, and that is good to see. I would hope that you could give them an accurate price of what it would take YOU to duplicate that for THEM, or what it really would cost them to attain their goals.

I also would not mind seeing you do a set of good heads like that for a beefed 403, and show those numbers. JMO

Good luck in the next EMC challenge.
Keep up the good work.
Jim in Phoenix.

Jim, 90% of my time was spent on the heads, so its hard to say what it could be duplicated for. i dont do this for a living, its a hobbie. i really have no idea how many hours are in the heads. the welding i did on them could be duplicated easily with some exhaust plates that filled the floor&divided the center port. i really concentrated on cutting down internal friction&what i did didnt really add much to the cost. my rings were ultra thin steel gas nitrited 1mm top, 1.2mm napier second&low tension 2mm oil.

i narrowed the main&rod bearing shells to reduce contact area. coated the mains myself with moly powder from dow corning. narrowed the cam bearings. used front&rear seals. i rebuilt my own .921 lifters&converted them to solids& had them mikronited which only cost $60.00 the cam was nitrided as well and thats cheap insurance. the valves were cast offs from a friend who races in super stock&they chuck the valves once a year.

the completed short block only took 7ft lbs to turn&i think this is where most of the good power numbers came from

i do have a 403 in the works that will blow everyones mind.

[gmrocket]

Originally Posted by 380 Racer

Like Jim indicated, you obviously didn't include your time in the $4000 pricetag. You had to have quite a few hours in those heads alone. Not sure what all you have but I'll bet a few machines at your disposal as well.
Regardless.......good job!

Nick, the only thing i had to send out was the crank..i dont have a crank grinder. i made the full girdle and added the j&s top. next time i'll do my own top. hey, your small block is really impressive&sounds like its running some good numbers!

[gmrocket]

Originally Posted by 84 rocket

I would say as a customer to an engine shop you could pay 10,000 for a smallblock to make over 400 horses.. As a machinist I could do it for 5,000 in parts alone if going top dollar , I have a 69 olds 350 in the makings now and could get 400 hp easy and for about 2000

just to get an idea of what someone would charge for a motor like mine, i emailed mondello and asked if they could build me a 435hp street 307 that runs on 91 octane like the engine masters 307..they said huh!! where is that&i told them about it&(i didnt tell them it was me, i acted like a customer)&its in the phr magazine, he said he would check it out&get back to me...two days i got a reply&they said the short block alone would be &8000.00 heads would be extra and according to what i wanted done..

[84 rocket]

Its not cheep to build a good engine thats realiable most of the customers that my boss and i build for run them two seasons before rebuilding them(freshining them up) there is no replacment for displacement thou big blocks will put out 400 plus with a few tricks and run on pump gas for way cheeper

[380 Racer]

Originally Posted by gmrocket

Nick, the only thing i had to send out was the crank..i dont have a crank grinder. i made the full girdle and added the j&s top. next time i'll do my own top. hey, your small block is really impressive&sounds like its running some good numbers!

Thanks Dale and my engine builder pays attention to detail just as you do .

[gmrocket]

i seen pics of thestuff inside your motor&its sweet. if i do have to get stuff done outside my own garage i'm very very picky about the work&will drive wherever i have to get quality work done. for this year i had to down size the lifter bores from .921 to .842 and i took it to BTR which is a pain crossing the border&all that crap..2 1/2 drive but well worth it for top notch cnc work.

to give you an idea of how long it takes to do things that need to be done right,,,,it took me a full day to fit the rings to the bores. the reason was because i ordered the rings +.003 over my bore size because i also wanted to fit the oil rails&expander..which are notoriously big on the gaps. they come file fit at +.005 over so i subtracted another .003...final bore 3.855 and rings were for a 3.858 bore. ever try to file fit a low tension 2mm oil rail??? it dont sit in the bore, it just falls through..so i had to make a plastic spacer. i also pumped hot water through the block with the tq plate on while doing the fitting...the result? 210 psi cranking pressure on one pump.

keep an eye out for the full feature, it should be out in a month or twoo

[gmrocket]

Originally Posted by 84 rocket

Its not cheep to build a good engine thats realiable most of the customers that my boss and i build for run them two seasons before rebuilding them(freshining them up) there is no replacment for displacement thou big blocks will put out 400 plus with a few tricks and run on pump gas for way cheeper

thats right, except we were talking the engine masters&if you wanted to do a big block for that it would need to make some big tq&hp numbers just so score what i did. in this case, the big motor would have been way more expensive to duplicate my numbers. if you dont believe me , look at these numbers.

i made 432.5 tq at 4600 which is 1.368 tq per cube
peak hp was 438.9 at 6000 which is 1.389 hp per

a 455 would need to make 622 tq &632 hp!! you think you can do that with factory iron heads on 91 octane& a flat tappet cam?? there is no way i could have done those numbers without expensive aluminum heads. a very big expensive carb. how much would big tube headers be for that monster??? my 307 headers were $160.00 brand new. so in this case,,no, a bigger motor would not have been cheaper to get the score

[gmrocket]

if anyone is interested my engine masters challenge 307 is in the november issue of popular hot rodding. look for it on the front cover&a 6 page detailed write up.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ine/index.html