67 Cutlass

Sorry if this is long winded...
So I decided to pull the motor and trans out of my 67 Cutlass to clean up all the grease on the motor, regasket except for the heads and paint it with the Hirsch gold I bought last March. Cleaning the outside was a chore (4 cans oven cleaner) and I got it close to where I could start pulling exhaust manifolds, valve covers and intake without all the dirt falling in. The engine has been sitting in the car in a garage for at least the last 10 years. Engine was last run about 5 years ago for maybe 10 minutes but never really run a lot in the last 10.

So I pull the exhaust manifolds off (which had no gaskets) then the valve covers and I found what looks like chunks of valve seals in the corners of the heads. I decided to try to pump oil through the system with a modified distributor and a drill to check oil coming out of the tops of rockers and pushrods. No oil came out after running the drill counter clockwise for about 5 minutes. I only saw oil coming out at a bearing just behind the cranks cam gear. So then I pulled the intake off (which had Victor gaskets) and found a lot more gunk than I expected to find caked near the push rods but only on one side of the motor. I removed a lot of it which was soft like warm butter. I was going to leave the heads on but change all the other gaskets and put a new double roller timing gear set in. Now I'm not sure how far to go with this motor. The motor only has 53,000 original miles on it. Machine shops are out of the budget.
I'll also be asking a lot of questions on this motor too. Any input is appreciated. Thanks.
So here are some pics to show where I'm at with the motor.

oldcutlass

The distributor goes CCW, the grime I'd loosen up with a screwdriver and scraper Then wipe down with a rag soaked in kerosene. Yes, those plastic bits are your old valve guide seals and the are inexpensive/easy to change. In addition the head gaskets are steel shim and over time they do corrode and blow between cylinders. The exhaust manifold have no gaskets from the factory. You might also pull the lifters 1 by 1 to see what kind of shape they are in and replace if they are concave. The intake manifold gasket is not a turkey tray for your engine, it's a 4 piece set.

lemoldsnut

I agree, I would pull the heads and replace the head gaskets and clean up as much as possible. There is a really great pan gasket out now it is fel pro 'os 30471 c' a very nice steel shimmed gasket that does not come out when tightening. I have done exactly what you are doing. I have also after taking the heads off run a bead hone through the cylinders, using lots of oil and cleaning as I went. I also checked the condition of the freeze plugs, and replaced any that seemed weak. When I had it all back together and ready to paint, I painted the entire engine with exhaust manifold paint. This is a great high heat paint and is cast iron in color so to make a uniform engine color/primer to then paint the engine paint onto. I have found this makes a much more uniform and correct looking finish paint job on the engine. Remember to be as clean as possible as you go. I would also rebuild or replace the oil pump. and of course replace the timing chain and gears while you are this far.

Hope my experience with that helps
Larry

olds 307 and 403

Yes those head gaskets can corrode IF someone ran water or let the coolant turn into sludge. I picked up a motor like that. The head gaskets leaked on that one, the coolant looked like oil, bad. My last 350, the original shims looked good. If the coolant looked decent, leave them alone. Smitty at M&J Proformance has .011" thick shim head gaskets, if you are worried about compression loss.

67 Cutlass

A lot of good info to start with! Thanks!
I got some kerosene and a new parts cleaning brush. I cleaned out a lot of the gunk then got into it with the kerosene on the heads and lifter valley areas. Big difference so far! When all looks clean up top then I'll drain the oil pan and drop it.
I will pull the heads, clean them up, install new seals and maybe lap the valves.
I'll pull the lifters 1 at a time, clean them and check for the flat spots. Same with the push rods and make sure they're still straight and keep everything in order.
Should I pull the cam and look for anything on it? I may be able to pull off a new cam and lifters if need be but would like something with more street punch than the stock cam.
Larry (lemoldsnut), I can't seem to find the Fel Pro 'os 30471 c' pan gasket you mentioned but I only looked on Summit's web site for it. Is it an intake gasket set? Also, when you ran the ball hone in the cylinders did you pull the pistons out to do that or drop them to BDC then hone? Great idea on the exhaust paint for primer thing.
I did plan for double roller timing gears and chain and a full gasket set for the engine. I'm just not sure which brands to order. Fel Pro, Sealed Power, etc.? I see the intake gasket sets needs to be bought seperate too.
As far as compression goes for the head gaskets, I'm not overly concerned yet. I'm not sure if I have the high or low compression 330 until I pull the heads. Reason I say that is because the head has no suffix stamped after W353909 but the protecto-plate has the G suffix (see the pics). Guess I'll know when I pull the heads?
Time to go clean some more and pull the heads...
Thanks again guys! My panic mode has tapered off to it is what it is!

olds 307 and 403

I am sure someone will know by pics of your piston dish, which 330 it is. Rocket Racing carries .028" composite gaskets, if you want to go in between.

oldcutlass

If you have a 4v carb you most likely have a HC330.


Your intake gasket set is Felpro MS9947-1:





I would use a Cloyles timing set. Since you are going to pull all your lifters, you can remove the distributor and slide the cam out gently to inspect the lobes for wear.

olds 307 and 403

Either go Billet 9 way or the Street Roller set from Cloyes. For the price difference, I should have bought the 9 way.

67 Cutlass

Thats the intake gasket setup that was on the motor when I pulled the intake but the part number was different where it said Victor. I can get those when I get home next week.



I saw the street roller on the Summit site but I was lost with finding the 9 way.





Thanks again for the input... unfortunately I'm out of town for work (12 hour shift) until this Monday or Tuesday so I shoot from the hip for now while I'm stuck in a motel room. Once again the project comes to a standstill.


I pulled the drivers side head and saw on the side of the pistons what looks like a thumbnail and not a V notch. So I think I have the low compression engine. The motor also had the black intake filter housing which I think the assembly manual labels it for low compression?
It does have the 4V but when I looked up the carb numbers in the assembly manual, I couldn't find those numbers.
Got to get some sleep now and I look on laptop for pictures I may have put on it before I left. Plenty of other things to bring up when I get a chance.

olds 307 and 403

If it is the low compression, buy the shim head gaskets. You may have to search under a 455. It is only about $15 more and supposed to be nice set. If you get the shim head gaskets from Smitty, I am sure he will get you rest at a fair price.

67 Cutlass

I've been home for a few days now. I have both heads removed and oil pan. I noticed some dimples on top of the pistons that look like valve impressions. 2 on the driver side (not as noticeable) and all 4 on the pasenger side. What could have caused this? Loose valves? Bad valve keepers? Am I looking at getting new pistons? I would much rather do the bead hone thing. Where or what brand am I looking for on the bead hone anyways?
However, I do have a set of HC pistons and rods that I saved from a '65 330 motor. They have the V notch on top of the pistons.
Also, I think these are the LC pistons but I'm willing to be corrected if need be. With todays low octane fuel the LC motor would probably be better anyway.

olds 307 and 403: If it is low compression then I'll look into that shim head gasket set from Smitty.

pmathews

That's interesting (the valve marks on the pistons). Someone probably over-revved the engine and the valves floated (a lot). I would expect to see some bent valves? Do they look straight? Are they sealing okay?

67 Cutlass

I haven't taken the heads apart yet or cleaned up the valve areas. The valves look okay I guess but then again it's not like I've spent a lot of time with stuff like this and the heads are still together. I did turn the motor over by hand and I never really noticed any kind of binding while turning it. Also, there were quite a few bits of valve seals when I pulled the valve covers.The push rods looked pretty straight too. Guess I'll know more when I pull the heads apart for a thorough cleaning, lapping valves (providing they're not bent) and new valve seals.

oldcutlass

Good time to check it all out. Valve guide seal bits are normal old age. That may have been something that happened a long time ago. Did the other bank have impact marks also? I'd also check your lower end while your there.

Magna86

I'd check all the bottom end bearing and probably replace them since you are this far it wont hurt anything. Dont forget to take the oil pump apart and clean it out as well. Or replace if you want. Those dimples are from over reving valve float but your pistons are fine. To be safe you can take your springs and have them tested for strength to see if any are weak but I doubt it. A light bead hone and some rings and she'll be happy for a long time. Yes low compression so pick up the shim gaskets.

67 Cutlass

Yes on the other bank (driver side) had 2 dimples on piston #1 and a slight single dimple on #5 but they're not as noticable as the ones on the passenger bank. #3 and #7 look fine.



I'll be taking the oil pump apart and giving it a good cleaning. Probably not going to mess with the heads for awhile other than a thorough cleaning.
So, as it's recommended to check the bottom end bearings.
What else should I be looking for other than obvious scoring? If the piston bearings are good is there anything special I need to do before putting them all back in. After I clean up the oil pump, I'll start with the pistons.
Is a bead hone fromNAPA, Autozone, Pepboys or Advanced Auto worth it or am I better off buying one online?
Also, I can't seem to find the shim head gaskets from Smitty. Anyone have a link for them?

67 Cutlass

Smitty's site is under construction. Guess I'll have to wait for it to come back

therobski

My 64 F-85 had 57K on the clock and been sitting since 83 before I removed every nut and bolt for the Pro-touring project that's under construction. I was very curious to see if that old 330 would fire. Had compression, turned over, hmmmm?? I sprayed oil in the cylinders let that soak for a week or so in the meantime installed fresh plugs and wires, rebuilt the 2 barrel, new points, new oil and filter ( filled the oil filter with oil then installed) pulled the distributor turned the oil pump get the fresh oil circulating. Cleaned out the radiator, just used water to re-fill, plumbed a line to fresh fuel in a can. Installed a fully charged battery. Had a fire extinguisher on stand by, sprayed some starter fluid down the carb and started cranking it over and she started!! It sounded really bad-the lifters were clattering until they started pumping up with oil and the 330 warmed up, a lot of exhaust smoke and crap blowing out the tailpipe. After some re-starts, I put a timing light on it, adjusted the carb that engine then became as quiet as a "church mouse", not even an oil leak-radiator though was shot. Yours should be fine-after all it's an Olds!

67 Cutlass

Wow that's pretty cool she fired up for you after all the years of sitting!! Yes it is an Olds!!
Hind sight, I should have tried to fire it up before I pulled it out of the frame. I also should have done a compression check too. Oh well, live and learn, I guess.

67 Cutlass

So a little update.


I have the oil pump apart and started cleaning it up. Nothing bad found so far. There is a kind of piston that was behind the pump spring that I couldn't get out. The pump gasket was ruined when I opened it up. The spring didn't come flying out at me when I pulled the pin so does that mean it's weak and needs to be replaced??
I did try to pull a valve out of one of the heads but my little spring compressor wouldn't release the valve keeper. Am I using it the wrong way or do I need to get one of those c-clamp type of spring compressor to get my valves out of the heads?

oldcutlass

That style won't work. You need one of these to push the cap down and remove the locks:

don71

X2..and I like to bolt the head down to a wooden bench with lag screws. Keeps things from moving around. Important part though, don't be afraid to carefully whack the valve assembly with a rubber mallet or small hammer. Those old keepers will be stuck.

I would also keep track of where all keepers/parts come from, try to put them back where they came from...but that's me.

67 Cutlass

Thanks guys! I've had that spring compressor for years and never used it so curiousity got the best of me even though I'm not ready to work the heads. I cleared out one of my benches to get the heads and associated parts off the floor of the shop but I am keeping everything organized so it all goes back where it belongs.

therobski

Your on it, doing good and learning! You will be amazed how well the 330 will respond to your work.

olds 307 and 403

PM Smitty275 on here. I am sure he will tell you all the details on those head gaskets.

67 Cutlass

Learning for sure but not afraid to make it right. That's why I need this awesome Olds community to hold my hand



Thanks for Smitty's info there. I will PM him when I'm done (in 2 weeks) with the job I start today in the Boston area. It's a job for now but I hate that commute from home but at least I'm not in a motel like the week before.




I got the oil pump apart and cleaned real good. Only a few small chunks of valve seals in the screen. Everything else looked pretty good. So I think I'm going to get a new body gasket and put it back together then bag and tag the pump 'til I'm ready for it. Pictures to follow when I get a chance.

I also started scraping old gasket material from the blocks head surface too. Are scotchbright pads good to use for a final cleaning on the block head surface? Will a knife hone block do any good too on the block and head mating surfaces? Just a thought.
What size ball hone should I be getting?? 4"?? or a little bigger?
Thanks again.

olds 307 and 403

I use the round Scotchbrite pads with the threads on the back and matching chuck attachment on my drill. Does a very nice job.

TripDeuces

I know you're well into this project but I'll throw this out there anyway. I have a 330 I just pulled from my 66. Runs perfect and complete from top to bottom except for the oil filter adapter. I'll sell the whole thing for $400, air cleaner to oil pan. I'm also right down the road in Middletown RI.

67 Cutlass

That sounds simple and easy. It'll be awhile before I get back into it due to the hours I work and commute on the project I'm working for now.


I'll definitely keep that in mind. Just a stones throw from here. I've been looking on craigslist just in case but there's either nothing or overpriced junk.
Is your 330 the HC or LC motor?

67 Cutlass

I'll also be looking for a THM 350 down the road when I'm ready to put it all back in.

MDchanic

1. The oil pump looks great.
   The piston is the pressure relief valve. The spring should not be particularly tense when at rest.
   A ¼-20 or M6 nut to shim the spring will increase your oil pressure to 50-60psi cold.
   
2. I would clean the head sealing surfaces with a sharp gasket scraper, and then finish gently with a fine Scotch-Lok pad, as noted.
   
3. The main and rod bearings will be scored, but so long as it's just a little, they're fine.
   The soft metal is designed to pick up and hold onto tiny pieces of debris that find their way through, to protect the journals, and there will be a few in there.
   
4. Why do you want to hone the cylinders?

- Eric

TripDeuces

67 Cutlass, it's the HC version. 320hp, 360tq

Seff

You can easily use that spring compressor you have, on those valves. Compress the spring like you did and tap the underside of the valve gently with a rubber mallet or a hammer with a piece of wood in between. The only reason the valve is opening is crud and friction between the rotator and keepers.

67 Cutlass

1: Ya, I thought the pumps inards looked pretty good after cleaning it all up. I just need to get a new gasket for the pump gear cover. I've read about shimming the spring to get higher oil pressure and may do that. Where should the shim go anyway? Pin side of the spring or relief piston side of spring?


2: I've already started with the razor part and I'm going to try to get some red scotch pads from work to clean the head and block mating surfaces.


3 & 4: I really didn't want to go this far with the engine due to budget constraints, low mileage on the engine and just wanting to get my car road worthy for this spring.
I didn't even want to pull the heads but when I opened up the motor, panic mode set in (see earlier posts).
This project started out as a thorough cleaning, regasket (except for the heads), new double roller timing chain and gears and paint with Hirsch Olds gold. Instead, it's turning into a MAW. So, I may be rethinking where I'm at on the engine and where I'm really going with it.


At least I can say this. I'm learning more (again) about the inner workings, tips and tricks of an Olds engine and how awesome one can be. I know I'm in good hands within the Olds community here.

MDchanic

Is the 330 different from later engines in this respect (as it is in its valley pan)? I haven't seen any gaskets on either the oil pump cover or on the attaching flange.


Doesn't matter. Wherever it's most stable.
I would get that piston loose, though, carefully and gently, with some GumOut or similar. It should move freely.


So Just Say No. It's your engine, and it looks really good inside, so just stop right there and move away from the wrench.
Rob's Anti-MAW helmets are surprisingly affordable, especially considering the money they save in the long run.

- Eric

67 Cutlass

There was no gasket where the pump attached to the rear bearing when I pulled it. There was a thin gasket on the pump cover that a small chunk of came off when I opened it. I saw a Felpro gasket on Autozone web site for under $2.



The piston moved but needed help the rest of the way. I bent a welding rod to help it get out. After a good cleaning it moves better now. I'm thinking put the shim between the spring and piston.



Yup. Leaning towards scotchbrite pads. I will clean the heads real good and check everything out when time allows. I have to put in new valve seals anyway