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Hey everyone, just an update:
This summer I replaced the TH350 (which became a paperweight last summer) with a 200-4r. The first one I had built was no good (a stuck valve in the pump or something) so I had to pull that one and put in the replacement. I went with a 2500 stall converter and I think it might be too high for my taste. Also, the lockup solenoid or valve is sticking so I'm running without lockup for now. Trans shop says no long trips until I get it working.
Next I pulled the rear end to swap in a set of 3.73 gears and limited slip carrier. A lot of cleaning and disassembly for sure. I got to the point of shimming the carrier with preload when I admitted I was in over my head. I took it to a shop with a good rep and the owner set up the gears for me. He used something called super shims, which I hadn't heard of and checked not only the pattern on the ring gear but also the pinion. The wife bought me this nifty Moser cover and I sprung for UMI tubular control (trailing) arms.
I'm still tweaking and tuning and it gets better all the time. Still not sold on the 2500 stall converter. Copper's been a big help along the way. He hooked me up with a curve kit for the HEI. I hadn't thought about the gear change necessitating a change in timing.
Today I installed the Mr. Gasket one inch phenolic spacer. I had it all hooked up and ready to test when I discovered the butterflies wouldn't open, like, at all. I had to flip the spacer over so the hollow side is up rather than underneath but it worked.
I also trashed the fuel line removing it from the carb so the local garage flared me up a new line and lent me a pipe bender. It's not perfect but works and doesn't leek.
I'm still tweaking the secondary air door tension and waiting on the HEI curve kit but I'm getting closer.
Last edited by Macadoo; July 7th, 2016 at 08:21 PM.
You gain a lot with a quicker timing curve, higher stall and better gearing. I am betting you will be able to adjust your secondary looser after the recurve and even get more of a gain in the seat of your pants. Where is your 2500 stall flashing? Mine seem to flash around 2300 or 2400 rpm. Two different motors and converters. A 2000 stall may have been better for you. Is it a big improvement power wise? I also had to put the hollow side up on that spacer, no issues with gaskets on both sides.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; July 7th, 2016 at 10:00 PM.
X3, Awesome thread with loads of information. The work you've done and showed in this thread is great for all of us. I've learned so much from everyone here. Cheers to all,
Eric
You gain a lot with a quicker timing curve, higher stall and better gearing. I am betting you will be able to adjust your secondary looser after the recurve and even get more of a gain in the seat of your pants. Where is your 2500 stall flashing? Mine seem to flash around 2300 or 2400 rpm. Two different motors and converters. A 2000 stall may have been better for you. Is it a big improvement power wise? I also had to put the hollow side up on that spacer, no issues with gaskets on both sides.
I'm still getting used to the high stall. I understand the theory but I don't like the feel of the slippage. Maybe I don't have things quite right but I do most of my driving under 2500 RPM. Or maybe the converter is a POS. I had other trouble with Midwest Converters. How do I test the flash? I'll look that up.
Glad to know that you had to flip the spacer too. I put it on my table saw to check for flatness and it wasn't perfect but pretty close.
I got the recurve kit this morning but may rest my back today. My brother and I are driving up the NHRA nationals in Rockford tomorrow and I want to be in good shape, lol.
Originally Posted by MDchanic
You've been doing a lot of work!
Sounds great!
- Eric
Originally Posted by oldcutlass
X2, good work.
Thanks fellas. Good to know you guys are still around
Location: I moved to pittsburgh so I can be near Primantis
Posts: 405
Caveat: the lockup solenoid on the 200's leaks internally, there is usually enough metal and free ions in the fluid to short it, and it can lock as soon as the fluid circuit is available. when you unplug it, you do not purge converter fluid and on a highway trip it can overheat - hence the recomendation. This can be solved with a valve body change and ditch lockup - its only a 200rpm drop ANYWAYS.
BUT, many people find the 200 a quick buck solution for a overdrive and it is, but UNLESS you absolutely rebuild it with hard parts from a GN/GNX (or better) rated tranny, you *will* gut it. not may, not might, will. it wont be gradual either, it will be a total hard failure one day (think intermediate shaft exploding into 500 pieces). Those trannys have a 100% failure rate behind >250ft torque motors without a strengthening inside. just because someone has not failed is like saying 'hey the cracked engine mount pylons on my DC10 have not failed yet so they wont....' contact Art Carr trannys. they have complete units and/or severe duty parts if you roll your own.
personally im also not sure you need a high stall converter on a lowrpm/hi torque motor. that olds should be capable of breaking things at 1800rpm just fine.
I did my homework on the 200-4r before having it built. I got all the goodies; billet direct drum, hardened stator, red clutches, etc. So let's hope it doesn't frag. It's supposed to be a stage II good to 400 hp. I'd be lucky if I have 250 horses.
Thanks for the solenoid insight. If I decide to get a lower stall converter I might just ditch the lockup and get a non-locking converter. If it's that simple, which I doubt.
So for flash: punch it (not holding the brakes) and see where the tach jumps to when the car moves? Sounds easy but I'm sure it's not.
Location: I moved to pittsburgh so I can be near Primantis
Posts: 405
if they are listing 400hp then its likely ok inside....they used the full size band and extra clutches 3/4 you should be good, at least its not the unfixable problem the 700's have internally with the sunshell breaking...
btw- in the gn/gnx, the tranny programming under WOT (mind you the throttle valve and guv'nor came into play) had it purposefully lock in 2nd since that was the money gear for the motor, then unluck for 3rd and stay unlocked until their foot got out of it
if they are listing 400hp then its likely ok inside....they used the full size band and extra clutches 3/4 you should be good, at least its not the unfixable problem the 700's have internally with the sunshell breaking...
btw- in the gn/gnx, the tranny programming under WOT (mind you the throttle valve and guv'nor came into play) had it purposefully lock in 2nd since that was the money gear for the motor, then unluck for 3rd and stay unlocked until their foot got out of it
Haha, interesting. No slippage loss in THAT gear. The place that built my trans had a GN but they wanted another $700 for that core. Plus they wanted it to go into a GN and didn't really want to sell it to me. But I guess after the build, they would be pretty much the same anyway. At least that's what they told me.
Floor the car from a dead stop, where the tach jumps to is the flash point. It may be a cheap converter and slipping. I have ran lock up in multiple 2004R trans, only one solenoid failed. There is other mods needed for non lock up, just get a new solenoid.
Yeah, I'll drop the pan when I get the chance. I was also told to spray some PB Blaster or WD40 up into the valve (above the solenoid) and work it up and down until I get good movement. No brake cleaner though, it needs lube.
I haven't tested my flash speed yet, i'll get to it Sunday. But for now, here's a good video from Summit about torque converts. I especially like 13:27, "make sure torque converter stall range is below the cruise RPM of the vehicle in a street application." My RPMs at 70 MPH are about 2200. The only time I reach 2500 is if I'm being aggressive. I need a lower stall, something in the 2000 range.
Justin!!! How are ya dude? Did you get that big block installed?
Mac, I have been slacking on the hot rod this year lol.
My oldest, graduated high school and I have been working very hard trying to get her to go to college and not take a break after summer.
My next in line 17 this year trying to get him to pull grades up so, he can get his license and figure out what car he wants before. I sell the fleet I have going on
4 kids in day care this year for the summer, but on a good note! all kids are in school in August so only summer day care for me now, funny tho I don't know what happen to the money ? Where does it go? Lol
Basically my wife wants her car soon so I have been stashing to get her project and at this point mine kinda is mobile so not much going on with mine these days.
College is a good thing......but only when they want it. I've had too many students that didn't want to be there. They do poorly because their hearts just aren't in it. It leads to bad grades and poor self esteem. Sometimes you have to let them find their own way. Maggie (the daughter) graduated with honors with a degree in math and astrophysics and she's working at state farm, lol.
Big block or small block, you still have one of the nicest looking cars on the forum.
Big block or small block, you still have one of the nicest looking cars on the forum.
Lol I don't know some days I just get home and by the time we get dinner done home work done we hit the bed and next thing we know the alarm is going off, feels like 5 min later
I know I can't force her to go. all I can do is help guide her, strange thing is she has had a life goal of being a judge sense she was 5. I am just trying to get her not to get cought up in life if that makes sense.
Thanks! There are lots of nice cars on the forum, counting yours! it's just amazing what this old grandma car is becoming. Mac, keep up the great work I really enjoy reading your threads!
I have bought a couple of 2004R converters, both fit Olds V8's fine. For a 2000 stall, 12" is fine. I have bought two PATC converters, one 2000 stall and the other 2200-2500 stall both nice and tight down low, under $200 plus shipping.
Lol I don't know some days I just get home and by the time we get dinner done home work done we hit the bed and next thing we know the alarm is going off, feels like 5 min later
I know I can't force her to go. all I can do is help guide her, strange thing is she has had a life goal of being a judge sense she was 5. I am just trying to get her not to get cought up in life if that makes sense.
Thanks! There are lots of nice cars on the forum, counting yours! it's just amazing what this old grandma car is becoming. Mac, keep up the great work I really enjoy reading your threads!
That makes perfect sense, gentle guidance is the key. A little time off wouldn't be a bad thing IF she doesn't get derailed from her dream. I took a year off and look at me; I'm a perfectly useless professor
Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403
I have bought a couple of 2004R converters, both fit Olds V8's fine. For a 2000 stall, 12" is fine. I have bought two PATC converters, one 2000 stall and the other 2200-2500 stall both nice and tight down low, under $200 plus shipping.
PATC? Potomac Appalachian Trail Club?
Lol, I know the PATC site. I'll flash the converter tomorrow, maybe have the wife take some video from the back seat of the tach and the window, play back in slo-mo. Would you recommend the 2k or 2k-2500? Would the 2k be something like 1800-2200?
Last edited by Macadoo; July 9th, 2016 at 07:42 PM.
College is a good thing......but only when they want it. I've had too many students that didn't want to be there. They do poorly because their hearts just aren't in it. It leads to bad grades and poor self esteem. Sometimes you have to let them find their own way. Maggie (the daughter) graduated with honors with a degree in math and astrophysics and she's working at state farm, lol.
Don't feel bad, my son graduated with honors with a bachelors in history and a minor in math. He now works at Walmart. Now he wants to get a Masters.
Don't feel bad, my son graduated with honors with a bachelors in history and a minor in math. He now works at Walmart. Now he wants to get a Masters.
So he can move up in Walmart?! Sorry, JK. Interesting though, isn't it? Without that degree, he might not have gotten on at Walmart. Things are pretty messed up.
If he wants to teach, a Masters is a good thing. Just don't let him come to Illinios. Not the best state for education right now.
Seriously? 1900? I thought it was more like 1300, or so I had heard. So 2k will be basically stock.
Will this one bolt up to the flywheel okay? I guess that's what is making me nervous about ordering. I can specify the stall and spline (27) but nobody asks about bolt pattern.
I have bought 2 street raptors, both fit fine. The D9 might stall at 1300 rpm behind a 3.8 V6. I am thinking the extra torque is the reason for the higher stall. Supposedly the D5 high stall with just over 2000 rpm behind the mighty 307 HO.
Excellent, thanks 307. That raptor is a really good price. Now, to get up my mojo for pulling the trans a 4th time this summer. (including the th350)
Also; if I try to sell the 2500 (which has maybe 70 miles on it), can I ship it half full of fluid? Is that legal? "This end up" marked on the box maybe?
You know you can just have a shop re flash the converter. Just putting that out there. I got a local shop here guy is great .I just got a 3400 stall lol.
Interesting. I think there is only one possible shop around here that might do that. I'll give them a call.
I'm confused about this curve kit from MSD. The weights are significantly smaller. Won't smaller/lighter weights make the curve longer rather than shorter? Maybe I could just change the springs to lighter springs?
Unfortunately, I didn't have a look at the speed of the curve with my timing light before I took it all apart. Rookie mistake.
Hey fellas, I can't seem to get rid of my off the line bog. I've been adjusting the secondary air doors most of the afternoon. Everything from just barely past spring load to a full turn. The bog changes a little but it's still there. Even if punching it from a slow roll. I've checked the choke pull-off and it holds a vacuum and takes 1.5-2 seconds to release after pushed in (engine off).
I can change it from a flat bog followed by a strong WOT to a slightly less boggy bog followed by a slower acceleration. I'm assuming the latter is the door spring adjusted too tight.
Ideas? Float set to low? Clogged gas filter? (Although it's only got about 5k miles on it and it's an inline, clear, highflow, and it looks clean).
I miss my old carb. It had the bog too but I got rid of it in two adjustments.
Slight bog followed by acceleration means lean to an extent., Small bog and fall on its face means rich this bog takes longer to recover . I don't know q jets but it seems like it needs more off the line fuel shot. Try richening up the idle. I have done that in the past to aid an off the line stumble.
The idle screws? I wouldn't have thought of that. Makes sense though.
I found the vac line to the front choke pull-off was a little loose so I replaced it. Set the air door back to the start and began adjusting again. Made about four passes and it's still bogging. Right now it's a big bog followed by good acceleration. I'll get back at it tomorrow. I'm starting to make mistakes which means it's time to quit. I left the wife's hand mirror on the intake for the last pass! Lol. It just melted a little.
Copper, the lighter advance springs have made a difference from what I can tell but I think I need to add the new weights and center plate.
WHen would a person need to move the accelerator pump lever rod to the other hole? As in increasing the pump shot?
Right now it's a big bog followed by good acceleration.
Sounds like the secondary air valve spring may be slightly too loose, like maybe an eighth or a quarter of a turn.
Richening the idle mixture screws can help cover for a poor transition, which could be caused by idle circuit jets and air bleeds that aren't well suited to your car's vacuum profile, but that's all it will do.
Make sure it isn't timing related. Mine has a similar bog at times, I bumped the timing a couple of degrees and eliminated the secondary pull off which both helped.
July 7th, 2016, 08:16 PM
. I am thinking the extra torque is the reason for the higher stall. Supposedly the D5 high stall with just over 2000 rpm behind the mighty 307 HO.
