76_cutty

hey guys been a minute. i've been getting ready to pull the beast out once again. shes been sitting for a couple years. put a new battery and she fired up like a champ, gave her some new flowmasters, brakes and a few other things shes riding nice. today i decided to do a "quick" tune up lol nothing is ever quick with this car! anyways put everything back together and shes idling REALLY rough. first thought i crossed some plug wires so i double checked and everything was right. i jumped online to look at the firing order and what i found was completely different from mine.

my question is it possible to have a different firing order than 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2
my #1 is facing the first cylinder but then its 2,5,8,4,3,6,7 i even tried the one i found online no luck. the car was running fine before i messed with it. the carb spit gas in the air then idled rough. then i tried starting it again the carb spit fire and smoke now it wont start i always pay mechanics because i hate getting stuck like this but im sick of half assed mechanics doing half assed work so im doing all my own work from here on so im gonna have to learn it. any advice would be greatly appreciated

btw its a 76 cutlass 350 hei

MDchanic

No.

That's the firing order of an Olds 330 / 350 / 400 / 403 / 425 / 455.

I would recommend connecting the wires in that order.

Remember - the rotor turns counterclockwise.

- Eric

76_cutty

yes sir i did, no good... i actually wrote the original order on the original cap, IDK

DoubleV

What exactly did you do when you tuned it up?

76_cutty

^^ im sorry that might help huh... oil change, new plugs (autolite plat. gapped to .50), cap/rotor (msd) & wires (taylor).

DoubleV

So you're saying it ran pretty good before you did anything and once you did the work it all went to h3ll? If so, then by logic it would have to be something you did and looking at what you said you did and the symtoms of your problem, it really seems like a firing order/timing/ignition type issue.

And to be clear, you didn't remove the distributor right? And you are 100% positive you have the right wire going to the #1 plug and all the others follow the correct 18436572 firing order going counter clockwise? And you never loosend the distributor at all and altered the timing?

76_cutty

no sir i didnt touch the distributor, it ran like a top before i touched, its been 5+ years since tune up. one thing i found strange is all the old plugs were gapped to .80 ???

kitfoxdave

is it a 1976 engine? If so it is a different set up than the 72 engine I have. The firing order in the chiltons shows the difference between years. I am away from my shop until the weekend, if you don't find it by then I'll take a picture for you.

When i first got the car it threw me as well... replaced the plugs wires etc... then wouldn't run!

76_cutty

yes sir it is, im going to try and find a manual tomorrow thanks for your help guys

DeltaPace77

You need to put the ignition wiring in the same order as your cam is ground. Some guys in Chevy's change the firing order a around a bit, with a cam ground for this, in fact all newer GM LS engines use the newer firing order, and why they sound different. Sounds like you screwed up the ignition wiring, with the carb spitting out fuel.

joe_padavano

Then Chiltons would be very wrong. EVERY 1964-1990 Olds V8 uses the 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 firing order. It is even cast into your intake manifold. Remember that the distributor runs CCW, opposite of a Chevy. Also remember that in 1975 Olds did use the Pontiac-sourced 400 motor in the Delta 88. Of course, even Ponchos use the 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 firing order.

Just for completeness, you CAN get an aftermarket Oldsmobile cam with the 4-7 firing order swap, but unless you changed the cam as part of this tuneup, I really don't think that's the issue.

m371961

Go back to the basics. Align timing mark, see if rotor is pointing to 1 or 6. Or get someone to bump engine with plug 1 out and your finger in hole. When you feel compression, align marks, check rotor pointing to 1. Recheck fire order CCW. Make sure rotor was installed correctly. Heard of people installing them 180 degrees off, but don't know how they did it.

joe_padavano

To be honest, I might have done it once...

If you're not careful, even the exhaust stroke will cause you to feel a pulse of air when using the finger-in-the-spark-plug-hole method. It's just nowhere near as forceful as when the cylinder is on the compression stroke. If one is, oh, in a hurry, and uses the first pulse he feels, the engine MAY be on the exhaust stroke.

citcapp

[QUOTE=joe_padavano;516392]To be honest, I might have done it once...



You and everyone one else who has ever installed a distributor

brown7373

Since you didn't remove the distributor and you didn't crank the engine and you are sure you have the wires in the right order, then my guess is you started wiring from the wrong terminal, not 180 off, but one terminal off. (ask me how I know) That is an easy mistake to make, and no matter how many times you check the order, it's always right. Unless you put the round peg of the distributor cap in the square hole without cracking it.

m371961

I have put a few square pegs in round holes, just not with GM rotors.
I have put distributors in 180 out, like Joe said, sometimes the comp. stroke is hard to tell from exhaust with valve cover on.

76_cutty

this is what im thinking. im gonna try again as soon as i get some time. my rotor has a notch so it only goes on one way, it did move a little (.25-.50 inch) while taking off the old rotor. is it possible to knock the timing off? thanx for everyones feedback ill let you know what i find.

lemoldsnut

Here is a thought also. Are you a Ford guy? If so you may be thinking of the cylinders numbered like a Ford does. That is not the same as GM motors.

76_cutty

^^no sir im starting front driver side ending back passenger side

lemoldsnut

with the odd numbers on the drivers side and even on the passenger side right?

76_cutty

yes sir

GAOldsman

Have you checked to make sure that you are getting "fire" to a plug?

lemoldsnut

Ok just making sure. Here are some thoughts. Is the cap cracked? They can crack when pulling them off after time. Is the coil center burnt out? Moving it could have broken off the center that tends to burn up anyway. I would check to ensure the rotor is on right. Then are all the wires good? this is not a visual check. this needs a continuity test. Did the boots crack at the plug and now arc when that cylinder fires? Did you get the gaps right on the plugs and not mess them up when you put them in? Did you crack a plug or two when installing them. I hate when I do that. Is the cap really seated on the distributor correctly?

Just some thoughts to check.

Hope you find it soon and it is simple
Good luck
Larry

76_cutty

it was running just really rough so im pretty sure they were getting spark

lemoldsnut

You can do a power balance test. If you don't have a power balance tester, just use a pair of plug wire pliers or very well insulated pliers. Take each wire off at the plug while it is running. One by one. When the engine does not change to a lower RPM that is the cylinder not firing. Then check the plug, plug wire and cap for that cylinder.

76_cutty

thanks Larry i appreciate you taking the time to respond, its all new equipment i didnt see any cracks. the old one was burnt and fell apart when i took it off. im definitely gonna make sure the cap is seated right, something i didnt think of.

76_cutty

it wont even start now, im gonna mess with it this evening ill let you guys know if i find anything

lemoldsnut

Something to remember, New only means new. It does not mean good. That is why things come with a warranty

RROLDSX

In the good old days, I purchased a Crappy Tire cap and rotor. They sent sparks all over the place. Make sure you buy quality parts for that distributor and enure the rotor is seated correctly. Just my 2 cents.

Good luck.

Octania

Do it by the basics
if it ran before the surgery it will run again.
The 1/4 inch of motion observed while replacing the rotor is just the mechanical advance. The rotor should move a bit advanced- CCW- then snap back CW.

Bring #1 up on compression, with the finger or gage to be sure. Align the timing 0-10 BTDC.

LOOK where the rotor is pointing. Assume nothing.

That is where your #1 wire goes. Even if the rotor is somehow forced on in violation of the indexing features.

Put cap on
Put the #1 wire there where you just observed the rotor pointing when the crank is verified to be ready to fire #1.

Then the remainder of the wires, CCW, correct order per cast-in markings on the intake

Cylinder #'s, viewed from above:

2 4 6 8
Fan Trans
1 3 5 7

Then it will run.

ls98

correct me if I'm wrong,but i believe the spark plug gap should be .o80.

MDchanic

0.080" is too wide. This was specified for a year or so, then rescinded because it caused running problems.

Current wisdom suggests about 0.040" to 0.050" for HEI, though anywhere from 0.035" to 0.060" would probably work.

- Eric

76_cutty

ok, took the distributor back apart to double check everything and 2 things. the msd cap comes with 2 different resistors with the spring that go under the coil (dont know if right name) but the two it came with look identical. ones supposed to be all brass. ill have to look more into it.

also the advance springs motion feels "gummy" best way to describe it. it doesnt open or close smoothly, is this normal? im gonna put it all back tomorrow with the other resistor tomorrow and go from there.

MDchanic

The advance should move smoothly, and snap back if you rotate it against the springs.

I have no idea what you mean by resistors in the cap - the stock cap has no such thing, but maybe it has to do with the fact that it' a hot-rod cap.

- Eric

Octania

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...se+distributor

You may wish to remove, dismantle, and relube the distributor if you want it to last a while- more than a year say.

I was wondering if you left out the contact thing between HEI coil and rotor...

76_cutty

im sorry its called a rotor bushing, i called msd and they said both look alike no distinguishing marks and i would have to put a meter on them to find the difference smh. one is for stock distributors one for msd 6al. so i swapped them out and im going to put it all back together tonight, we'll see what happens. thanx for all the replies

76_cutty

i was afraid that was gonna be the situation, no better time to learn than now i guess lol thanx

Dave B

I had the same symptoms on my 57 Olds. We changed a whole bunch of ignition parts, then spent days removing,checking and replacing these pieces. We put the ignition back to stock using all the original parts. Still no good. Eventually it was discovered that a wire on the ignition switch only had a few threads left on it and it wasn't man enough to carry the voltage. Maybe worth checking for broken wires or bad/dirty earth on ignition circuit and or engine.

Hopefully, you'll find the culprit soon.

76_cutty

ok latest update, i tried a few different things and still not running. decided to start over clean and pulled the distributor out disassembled it and put dielectric grease on the connections. the weights and springs have some kind of sticky black goop on them making everything gummy so im gonna clean it up with wd40 and hit it with dielectric grease. should i be using something different to clean/grease? anything else i should be looking for while i have it out of the car? also should the center weight move stiffly or move freely?

MDchanic

There is no place in your distributor which should be touched by dielectric grease, which is an electrical insulator, an is not a lubricant.

Use a good-quality high-speed grease on the bushings, like wheel-bearing grease, use a thick grease, like special points rubbing block grease, on the rubbing block, and maybe use some light oil, like 3-in-1, on the pivot points of the advance unit.

Dielectric grease is for the spark plug wire boots.

- Eric