Hardened Seats

[millwrightrice]

Is putting hardened seats a necessity or not?
What is the worse case scenario if I bulid my 330 without these seats?:

[oldsmobile1915]

Originally Posted by millwrightrice

Is putting hardened seats a necessity or not?
What is the worse case scenario if I bulid my 330 without these seats?:

well, you could got through valves or heads... it all depends on the materials used in manufacturing, and how you drive... If you drive short distances and are easy with the olds... not a biggie.

if you keep adding the lead additive, you should be good too and then shouldn't need the seats.

I honestly havn't performed scientific tests personally, but this information is to the best of my knowledge.

~Joe

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by millwrightrice

Is putting hardened seats a necessity or not?
What is the worse case scenario if I bulid my 330 without these seats?:

Worst case is you'll have to do another valve job at 50,000 miles instead of 100,000 miles.

[67htc]

From what understand, if you don't put your engine under a lot of heavy load, like pulling long grades with your foot in it, you can get away without the hardened seats for some time.
Tetraethyl lead was used as an anti-knock additive, but also served the purpose of acting as a cushioning agent on the valves / seats.
If you run gonads-to-the-wall without leaded gas and hardened seats, you will erode the valve heads and eventually "suck" a valve (or two).....

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by 67htc

From what understand, if you don't put your engine under a lot of heavy load, like pulling long grades with your foot in it, you can get away without the hardened seats for some time.
Tetraethyl lead was used as an anti-knock additive, but also served the purpose of acting as a cushioning agent on the valves / seats.
If you run gonads-to-the-wall without leaded gas and hardened seats, you will erode the valve heads and eventually "suck" a valve (or two).....

Well, first, I don't understand why heavy loads have any impact (pun not intended) on valve heads hitting the seats. The impact force is solely a function of the valve springs, and that force will be the same at a given RPM whether the engine is being lugged going up a hill or being revved in neutral.

As for the lead cushioning effect, that's true, but I can provide anecdotal information in the form of the 66 400 motor with stock B heads and plain seats. I am not an easy driver and let's just say that this particular engine had a hard life for many years under my right foot as a daily driver. On a steady diet of unleaded premium there was no degradation and no valve "sucking". Was there an existing cushion of lead already there? Possibly, but that would have been a long time ago.

For a car that's not a daily driver, I doubt you'll see the difference in many years of weekend driving.

[67htc]

My comment of "heavy load" refers to excessive heat generated while climbing steep grades under near full throttle. Maybe you live in flat country, Joe?

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by 67htc

My comment of "heavy load" refers to excessive heat generated while climbing steep grades under near full throttle. Maybe you live in flat country, Joe?

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I took your original point to be that the lead buildup on the seats cushioned the valve impact under heavy loads:

Originally Posted by 67htc

From what understand, if you don't put your engine under a lot of heavy load, like pulling long grades with your foot in it, you can get away without the hardened seats for some time.
Tetraethyl lead was used as an anti-knock additive, but also served the purpose of acting as a cushioning agent on the valves / seats.
If you run gonads-to-the-wall without leaded gas and hardened seats, you will erode the valve heads and eventually "suck" a valve (or two).....

I apologize if I misread that, but I still don't see how climbing hills or pulling a trailer in any way changes how hard the valves hit the seats, heat or no heat. And yes, where I live is reasonably flat, by my B-headed motor with non-hardened seats saw LOTS of high RPM, "gonads-to-the-wall" time. Still didn't have a valve problem.

And on a trivia note, the phrase "balls out" or "balls to the wall" refers to the weigh balls on the governors of steam locomotives. At high speeds these spinning governor balls were all the way out, with the throttle to the wall. Why, what were YOU thinking it meant...

[2blu442]

OK Joe, from the Oldsmobile knowledge you've shared I've concluded your not exactly a spring chicken, but if you know about Steam Locomotives too just how old are you

I've heard that phrase many a time but had never heard where it had come from John.

[Oldsguy]

I saw that on Wild West Tech, on the History channel. They have some cool stuff on there.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by 2blu442

OK Joe, from the Oldsmobile knowledge you've shared I've concluded your not exactly a spring chicken, but if you know about Steam Locomotives too just how old are you

Great. Just call me Yoda...

Seriously, I read that someplace a while ago. I'm great at remembering useless trivia. There may be a game show in my future.

[67htc]

I don't know that much about locomotives, except that when they let the old steam engines run too low on water; they violently exploded.
Here's a little more trivia about "balls", Joe.
I was raised in the Black mining Hills of South Dakota (Rocky Raccoon; Beatles) and for a time worked underground and surface jobs for Homestake Mining in Lead (pronounced: Leed) So. Dak. back in the 1960's.
At one point I operated and maintained the hoist at the Yates shaft. The Yates shaft had a vertical travel of 5,150 feet.
Your description of the locomotive governors reminded me of the speed governor for the hoists. If the rotating speed of the conical hoist drum exceeded limits, the governor would shut down the hoist motor and apply huge wooden brake shoes to the hoist drum and steel spikes incorporated into the "cage" (man hoist) would fly out an dig into the mahogany guides lining the shaft on either side of the cage. The governor assembly was lubricated, every day, with a very fine machine oil. This rotating assembly of two opposed balls was driven through a gear reduction system linked to the hoist. The fast the hoist operated, the farther centrifical force lifted the balls. The governor system was invented and designed by a gentleman by the last name of "Lilly". Consequently; lubing the assembly was refered to as "oiling the Lillys".
The Homestake Gold Mine ceased mining operations a few years ago, but is now being retrofitted for scientific research.
Back to the hardened seat subject for a moment. Years ago, when I belonged to the Buick Owners Club of America, it was generally agreed and accepted that pulling long steep grades under heavy throttle generated eccessive heat which would eventually cause reccession of the valves into the unhardened seats when using unleaded gas.
Now, I'm hearing a different philosophy in this site. Obviously, SOMEONE is mistaken. But then, maybe the auto manufacturers were just being silly by putting hardened seats in at all ????
You didn't state your age, Joe. I'm 62.

[millwrightrice]

Guys thats cool I'll get the hardened seats it only cost $100.Thanks for the help.I have never had any issue's with the seats falling out like my chevy friend was scared of,but he's a chevy guys they are weird anyway.