65cutty

ok my 350 short block is done. went with the 20-22 cam, coyles double roller gear and chain, stock bore and new stock pistons this is a 1975 block, rods have been sized and the crank just needed polished and has standard main and rod bearings, heads will have been cut 10 thousands and mondello spring's, retainer's, keeper's, guide plate's and old's guy 3 angle valve job as he sugested, I have a 2300 stall converter and the tci350 trans is the converter ok for this application? and do you have any thougts on any of the above before the heads go on the the engine put in? thank all of you for your help over the last 4 months.....jim

J-(Chicago)

It should be fine.

65cutty

Boy I hope so, this has been pretty expensive so far. just dont want to run into trouble later because I didnt ask the right question, all of you guy's wireman134, captjim, olds guy, 88, of course joe the wizard. thanks to all of you...jim

captjim

Which pistons are you using? Part #, if you know it.

65cutty

factory stock!

captjim

Could you elaborate? Reason I ask is the currently available "stock replacement" piston has a 22 cc dish and a 1.595 p/h. If you used those with the #8 heads, your compression ratio will be VERY low.

65cutty

captjim, my eng only had 39000 miles on it when I pulled it from a car that had been sitting in a garage for 12 years. the pistons only need a good cleaning and that was done at the machine shop. they look new so I used them again as this car must be useable for trips to various shows. the block got a 300 to 500 hone on the cylenders and the rods were resized to std bearings, crank polished , std bearings for that to. this was a very tight eng the shop told me. I was told that the enging would be at 8.5 as it was back to new for 1975, I was as mention before going to use the steel head gaskets from mondello and the 3 angle valve job with cutting the heads 10,000 , mondello cam, 20-22, lifters push rods, studs and roller tip rocker arms, guide plates and poly locks, per there recomendation's really want to thank you for your time and knowledge....jim

captjim

OK, I was confused because your original post stated "New stock pistons" so I thought that you maybe replaced them.
But, big surprise here, I think that is too much cam. I am a firm believer that most guys over cam their 350s, and in this case IMO, the 20-22 is too much for an 8.5 to 1 355. Sorry. Something with an intake duration of 110-115@ .050 would work better. IMO.

65cutty

in what way is it to big, not being smart here just needing the info. and what cam would you use. am thinking 68,69 ram rod 350 grind and for a stick as mine is an automatic. boy hate to take it back down...jim

cutlassefi

I agree with Jim, too much cam for your application, although I think he meant 210-215 not 110-115. What gear do you have?

IMO Lunati has some nice grinds for your project. I openly admit I'm not an Engle/Mondello cam supporter. Had one, didn't check out to what it was supposed too plus the grind combination wasn't any different than anything else in their catalog. And they're supposed to be the "Olds Guys" Bull****.

You need something with short "off the seat time" but my guess is you'll probably not want anything too aggressive. I'll come back with a choice or two.

65cutty

AM running a 355 posi with 27 in tall tires. am wanting lumpy idle and be able to drive long distances, hopfully some miles to the gallon....jim

cutlassefi

There are a couple ways to get a lumpy idle, duration and/or lobe seperation. But it will be harder to hear if you have manifolds instead of headers and haven't filled the exhaust crossover.
I would stick with something in the 210-215 range like Jim said but on a little tighter lobe sep. That way you have a better chance of getting the idle you want but more streetability than if you went with some thing with more duration and a wider lobe sep. Plus you may need to advance it a bit as well. A tighter lobe sep builds more power sooner, again better for streetability. For about $15.00 more than normal price, Lunati will grind you almost anything you want. I've done a few with them and they always checked out right on and ran as expected. I use Erson for my rollers but Lunati for all my flat tappet stuff. Had great results with both.

Remember, all cam companies grind their catalog cams for the masses and to some degree they are all a compromise, even Engle/Mondello.

By the way- I double checked the specs on the 20-22. IMO way too big. It'll be a pig down low.

65cutty

WELL, am not a cam person at all and I really dont want a flat tappet have that now in the 330 what a pain, and so I guess what I reall need in what cam and by whom, dont understand all the cam lingo did some years ago but thats all changed, 68,69 w32 ram rod stick cam in front of an automatic was a nice sound and ok on the power end as am not drag racing this at all...........jim

captjim

Make up your mind, hard to have both, IMO.
Mark is correct, I meant 210-215, sorry.
There are plenty of grinds off the shelf that will work fine. I went from a 214/224 cam to a 210/216 in a 9 to 1 355 and knocked .8 off the ET, and it had much better response. IIRC, the 20-22 is 226/230, right?? Too much, IMO
However, my lack of cam knowledge has been pointed out on numerous occasions on this site, so by all means call up a pro to get their advice. Tim at Bullet is a great guy and knows his Oldsmobiles. He likes the venerable .485/218 cam I like the Engles better than Mark and think the 16-18 is a good choice. Crane makes a good one, and so does Lunati. The 60801 Voodoo would work well, too, IMO.

65cutty

didnt realize that I was trying to get both, ok then Ive heard of the vodoo in other areas of this forum and if you folks think thats a ok cam to use that gives good low rpm torque and a little lumpy idle then I'll get the 60801......jim what can I expect from this cam?

cutlassefi

Again I agree with Jim on most eveything. Ironically I just threw away my old Engle 16-18. it measured way off anyway, 6 degrees less on duration and .010 on cam lift. Not impressed. However if you want to go down that road ask them if they'll grind that 16-18 for you on a 110 instead of a 112. Install it at no more than 106.
I like the 60801 VooDoo as well. Not sure if they still make it but I also like the Lunati 318A2, 217/221 on a 110 with the recommendation of installing it at 104. Not quite as aggressive as the VooDoo. IMO that should work well. I did a custom Lunati, 223/231 on a 108 for a 9.5/1 363 Olds. Runs awesome.

Whatever you go with, pay somebody, have your machine shop, somebody degree it in for you. I just helped a guy with a Corvette. Bought a Comp Magnum 280. Ran less then stellar. Found out it was more than 6 degrees off. Fixed that and added 2 more degrees advance. It's a different car. Do it right the first time and check 'em.

IMO-I don't like the generic cams either. They have a tendency to be a bit lazy because of very conservative lobe profiles. Too much off the seat time for the lift etc., especially in your application. My guess is that's why Capt. Jim's car ran better with the smaller cam. Plus his new cam may have been ground with a bit more advance in it. Also, typically the bigger the spread between intake and exhaust duration, the longer legs it will have. Less spread normally equates to more midrange and better throttle response.

captjim

You won't have a lumpy ide with that cam, but you should have very nice throttle response. I know a "lumpy idle" sounds cool, but that usually means a cam with a fair amount of duration and compression. Better to idle smoothly and run good than to "sound" good and be a dog. IMO.
This would work nice,
http://cranecams.com/?show=browsePar...tType=camshaft
Here is the 60801
http://204.14.106.238/Product.aspx?id=1721&gid=28
Engle 16-18 is .472/.488 210/216 @ .050 on a 110
Again, like Mark suggested, for a teeny bit more you can get a professional to grind you a custom one for your application.

cutlassefi

I agree with Jim again. That Crane would be nice ground on a 110 or even a 108. But that would be difficult seeing as how Crane is out of business.

P.S. I was thinking the Engle 16-18 was 216/226 on a 112. That must be the 18-20. That's what I just threw out.

88 coupe

http://www.scorpionracingproductstv....php?reset=true

Norm

88 coupe

More cam = less mileage.

Norm

88 coupe

Do you think the difference might have had anything to with your carburetor problem?

JM 16-18 (.472"/.488"_256°/260°_210°/216°_112°) is an RV cam, designed for towing/motorhome use. Some may find that it fits their needs perfectly, and some will not.

Between the RV cam and the JM 20-22 there is a JM 18-20 (.488"/.496"_260°/266°_216°/226°_112°). Some (who are not planning to tow a trailer) might find it a better choice.

If the JM 20-22 (.496"/.512_266°/274°_226°/230°_110°) cam was suggested/chosen because of a "real time" discussion with with a cam grinder or an engine builder, it is likely the best option for this particular combination.

When making a cam choice, for street use, the biggest consideration is always personal preference.

Norm

captjim

Originally Posted by captjim
........ I went from a 214/224 cam to a 210/216 in a 9 to 1 355 and knocked .8 off the ET ........
Do you think the difference might have had anything to with your carburetor problem?

Nope. The only carb problem I ever had with the car was much later when I let others persuade me into swapping my Holley for a professionally build Q-jet. It remains my personal opinion that the 214/224 cam is a poor choice for a low compression 350 Olds engine.

Norm likes to poke fun at my "RV" cam, but there are guys out there who might find a 3950 lb car that runs high 13s, gets 18 mpg and can be driven anywhere a fun car to have. BTW, that cam had no noticeable idle. Just to add, I have the 60803 Voodoo in a 10.4 to 1 355, and it had very little "lope" after it warmed up, and it is 227/233. I would expect the 60901 to have a very smooth idle. Just my opinion, as always.

Also, I will re-state Mark's suggestion, putting in a cam without degreeing it is a huge crap shoot. Even using high dollar cams and chains, they are seldom dead on.
At the risk of further ridicule from my buddy, I will post a link to some video I make while degreeing my cam at home. Not great, but hopefully it gives you the idea, and it is pretty easy,
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...95865478396890 TDC
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...41611176015126 I/C
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...69278091943082 @.050

Jamesbo

Being a cam instalation moron, I enjoyed the videos.-Thanks

cutlassefi

Not bad Jim, not bad! Nice job!

65cutty

OK. really want to thank all of you for making me think this thru using all of your susgestions, how about the old way, 308 duration with 440 lift and 440 lift on the exhaust, this IS ABOUT AS CLOSE TO THE W31 OR W32 IN 70 OR 71 350'S isnt it? good for about 310 hp and maybe using the thin metal head gasket and cutting the heads to lets say 20,000 that will build some compression. now with the begining statement of this thread will all of this be a good combo? and do you think I could get some phone numbers to good cam making people, maybe dick miller racing, captjim may I copy your vidios of degreeing a cam? ....jim

cutlassefi

You need 10/1 to run that cam, minimum. No matter what stall converter you have.
You may want to think about raising your compression significantly. That's the only way you'll be able to run a cam that you can hear and have it not be a pig down low. Cutting your heads .020 isn't enough. That's only about 3 cc's. You need 10+. Remember raising compression, (to a point obviously) increases hp and efficiency everywhere.

As mentioned I like Lunati for their flat tappet stuff. Just go to their website and grab the number, www.lunatipower.com Give them as much info as possible. Keep us posted.

Thanks

65cutty

ok, I've filled out the lunati form and will wait there anwser, and how would this cam be 48 degree overlap 262 intake, 274 exhaust, 440 lift on int, 440 lift on ext. as you can tell am pretty lost on this but all you are really a big help thank you...jim

J-(Chicago)

.440 lift is almost 455 stock size.

cutlassefi

Couldn't find that cam but here is my opinion. And it's just that, my opinion.

If you're sure you have 8.5/1 or better I still like the Lunati 318A2 if they still make it. If you're not sure that you have at least 8.5/1 then I'd consider having them grind you a cam with these lobe numbers. On the intake side a UH11, 260 Adv. 211@.050 with .471 lift, Exhaust UH3, 266 Adv. 217@.050, .484 lift. I would have them grind it on a 108 and install it at 104. It should be very streetable but it'll be done by 5000 rpm max for sure. Make sure they still have those profiles available. The last time I ordered one the advertised was a bit different. Still worked well though.

As far as being able to hear it, you never did say whether or not you had headers.

When you hear a cam it's because you're generating enough bang in the combustion chamber and opening the exhaust valve soon enough to actually hear the end of the combustion process. Not enough bang (compression) and/or not enough exhaust duration, you won't hear it, no matter what.

captjim

Hey Mark, I like the #s, but can you share the reason behind the 108 lobe sep? Thanks, Jim

65cutty

I have hooker super comp, w 2 1/2 back to flowmaster's and 2 1/2 tail pipes .

65cutty

hey guys, where can one order a cam and have it there way?

cutlassefi

I'll try to answer everything the best I can.
Cutty- you can order it almost anywhere. Summit will sell you an off the shelf cam or they'll take your order for a custom one as well.

Capt Jim- the reason for the 108 lobe sep is for a little tone and quick revs, to make up for the lower compression. When in doubt on choosing between cams, typically going with a cam that has less overall duration but a smaller/tighter lobe sep will give you better performance in the realm of throttle response. When you tighten the lobe sep it fools the motor into thinking it has more duration than it really does.. But it will also make it a bit more peaky, which in this case though it should work to his advantage. Simply put, it will build more power sooner. Plus a tighter lobe sep will also enhance heads that don't flow as well by getting everything moving a bit sooner. If you have real good flowing heads and/or large valves then you can spread the lobe sep a bit. When you don't, the opposite is true.

Look at Comps' Thumper Series. They feature a lot of exhaust duration over intake. They are ground on a 107 lobe sep but they advise putting them in at 102. What does all that do? Simple, the higher exhaust duration gives it some legs and along with the tighter lobe sep gives it the tone as well. The tighter lobe sep along with installing it real early still allows it to have good throttle response too even though it has a fair amount of duration for a lower compression application. Even their smallest one is 227/241 @ .050, and they say you can run that with just 9.0/1. My friends at Erson get a kick out of this "new" cam design. They've been doing the same thing for years, and think it's funny that Comp just now figured out that you can grind a cam on something other than a 110. Look at their catalog, that's what most everything is ground on. I like Comp, but I still think they are at least as good of a marketing company as they are a cam company.

88 coupe

How can a change in lobe separation angle affect the exhaust (or intake) duration?

Norm

cutlassefi

Spin it anyway you like Norm.What I said was the tighter lobe sep along with the amount of exhaust duration (241 degrees at .050 on this cam) will produce the the sound some guys are looking for, hence the term "Thumper" Is that better Norm? Where does it say a change in lobe seperation will effect the exhaust (or intake) duration?

88 coupe

So the answer is: It cannot?

Norm

65cutty

OK guy's, jegs has listed the lunati voodo cam 60801 and will all of you agree that it's a good cam to use in my slug 350? and again I want to thank all of you for this great info on cams as you know am not any good at fiquaring out what to use , thank you....jim

cutlassefi

Jim- Sounds like you're going to get the VooDoo. I would agree that is probably the best off the shelf cam available for your application. Just remember to use a good break-in oil or additive and run it around 1800-2000rpm for 15 minutes or so when first cranking it. I use GM EOS, it's always worked well for me.

Norm -how is it you're the only one that doesn't get this?

65cutty

thanks mark for all you info and taking the time to work with me on this , thank you....jim

cutlassefi

No problem. I hope I was helpful. Let us know how it turns out.