coppercutlass

Now thats funny lol. But seriously 1/4 mile times are kind of the norm if you hav an 1/8th mile then you change gear as needed.

wr1970

Correct copper. Very good post.

captjim

Ye, but it changes the numbers, making my point that there are a bunch of variables.

wr1970

Back to the Captjim thread as mine doesn't matter to him. Only his opinion will be taken serious! LOL This is beyond being funny! Will anyone answer my question not if Captjim has his way.

captjim

You have stumbled upon a truth. Yes, you adjust for the 1/8. BUT, that changes things. Go to a chassis dyno, do a pull in 2nd gear, then in 3rd gear. Guess what? HP numbers will be different. The rate of acceleration changes HP numbers. A car with steep gears will show less HP than one will less so. 1/4 mile times will show more HP than 1/8 mile, in the EXACT same car, but with different gearing.

captjim

Once again, please answer the question; why are dyno results excluded from this thread.

wr1970

More drivel about a question that has been answered.

coppercutlass

wouldnt MPH play a big factor into the HP from track times regardless of it being 8th or quarter.

wr1970

Yeah the Et and mph when run on a racing calc can spit out hp numbers. I use the one that is a sticky in this forum all the time. Then if you find out any other info on said combo or combo's that can be researched also on this calculator. I am sure you are aware of all this anyway.

coppercutlass

thats what i was getting at. there are so many calculators its unreal.

captjim

Bull***t. ET has NOTHING to do with HP. You can spin on the line for ten seconds, too many variables.

coppercutlass

Im officially jumping off this crotch rocket ride with stevie wonder.

wr1970

LOL!! The spin doctor is in the house!

wr1970

Hey spin doctor there is one variable in this thread.The one where you can't read what this thread is about. Copper I think Captjim is on worn out gears. I also think he is over powering this thread with his worn out slicks.

rad

I think the only reason you dont see track et's on procomps is because i think alot of them are on engines that are still being built and haven't been put in cars yet cutlessefi is one of the few that ive read about even dynoing builds with these heads i think the procomps are just starting to catch on and i think well see more of them i can respect captjims view he likes the brains over money approach kind of like i do im porting a set of iron heads now for a 455 build but in the future ill probably switch them to procomps i think aluminum has more benefits over iron as far as weight and detonation problems with compression but ive never seen a post anywhere that this procomp subject didnt turn political at some point and all i can say is thats theres probably more parts made in china then you think ( eagle, scat etc.) so get used to that its not gonna change, i think dyno numbers are a good tool to use to compare things with and if you race the et's are a nice tool also but the guy that asked a simple question didnt even get an answer and it turned into a knowledge pissing contest like all forums pretty much, i build all my own stuff from engine to rearend i have no access to a dyno and even if i did id spend the money on making engine up grades that i know works like i say dyno numbers are nice to know but for the cost of it its not effective enough for me people that sit around and bench race and argue horsepower numbers might as well be measuring ***** size because the torque is what propels the car in the first place and with oldsmobile its all about torque anyways,if i wanted to race all the time id build a 496 chevy that would make most of these olds numbers look like crap and cheaper to boot but i think for a street machine the olds is alot more user friendly in the long run and ive built them before and loved them but i can respect some of captjims views because he is a do it yourselfer butbya have to be somewhat open minded too, i see alot of these posts that start out with my buddy says this, my engine builder says this, and travatos book quotes pop up too and im not saying theyre all wrong but its not gospel either i use what i know works the first olds engines i built was back when there was no internet and joe mondello was the only game in town for knowledge so ive deffinetly learned alot from here as the times changed and im glad these people like cutlessefi do share thier knowledge it helps us guys that build our own stuff tremendously but this post got way outa hand and i probably didnt help it any but heres my 2 cents

wr1970

Thanks for posting Rad.

captjim

You guys can call me names, but you are still incorrect. ET is NOT a good indicator of HP. MPH along with the exact weight of the vehicle is a pretty good indicator and will give you a fairly accurate number, though it is still an estimate with variables involved. For comparison purposes, it is OK, but again gearing, weather, ETC all play a factor.

wr1970

I am not saying any of this post is wrong! I am saying you are wrong for not letting this thread get info with the constraints that i set. If the guy who is running these heads gives out other info then yes it would be a better gauge. Your sole purpose of posting is aimed at being disrupting with what you feel is important. If anyone wanted to post a combo your disruptive antics may cause them to not post a combo. All of that flew over your head on the get go. Your mission on all of my post is the same. Yeah this thread got views but nothing but disruptive crap.If you had never posted then this thread might of had a chance at some guy with these heads coming forward and telling us about what he had.

captjim

I think Rad made the point, these heads have become popular recently and most builds are still in progress. It does not seem like many guys are using them in their race cars, which is even more reason to allow dyno results. To this point you still have not given a good reason to exclude them. You started this thread knowing there will be few, if any, posts from guys racing them. Even in your other "race engine" thread, there are some VERY impressive combos, but most you pulled from ROP and are guys who never post here.

wr1970

I think some were used in 2013 according to my sources this is 2015.Plenty of time.You still are injecting other factors which i am not interested in. You can not restrain yourself long enough to let this possible guy who may have used a set of these pro comp heads so we can find out some info.THAT IS WHAT YOU DON'T GET!!!!If you want to talk about the engine combo thread for racing engines go right ahead.Do this in a different thread. .That sticky was made so racers could make a comparison or use as a guide for a build they might want to try.Start your own thread.

GEARMAN69

I was going to stay out of this thread but on this above it is partially on point IF you wanted to set up a car for full time drag duty. In the South yes maybe 4:1 on 1/8 to 1/4 mile venues around. But... like Copper points out on his street car combo limiting his gear and stall which is completely fair, a street car would never be setup for only 1/8 mile. Also a dialed in 1/4 mile car Yes is geared for the full pass but... if they have the 60's dialed in and are drilling it out of the hole they also have their 1/8th dialed in just fine. We have a long running Texas Muscle Car Club Challenge series that involves car clubs racing each other at 1/8th and 1/4 mile tracks and everyone knows both very well. Some cars do benefit from a 1/8th mile setup with deep gears (SBF, LS, SBC , BBC etc) also if the choice for a 2 speed automatic is used which needs a deep rear gear matched to it. My long stroke torque based Poncho would not benefit much from a low gear for an 1/8th setup. I would gear it up to maybe 3.42 - 3.55 max from 3.08 if I was switching to a 28x10.5 slick and had 30-31 spine axles.

As far the heads I have nothing to add other than I would run the aluminum heads if I was building a nice street strip BBO for my wagon down the road. Mainly because any serious race build I would want at least 11:1 and with aluminum I could run 93 octane therefore making it a street combo. I would share track times and MPH and weight is a very good indicator of HP, the TQ based version of ET calculators can be thrown for a loop and make the HP falsely high or falsely low depending on combo. Really comparing both methods can give you a decent idea though. LS1 street cars tend to MPH very well the 2nd half of the 1/4 mile versus there 1/8th mile times which is the opposite of my old Injun torque combo. I might be 3 tenths quicker in the 1/4 but 3 mph slower. I plan to assemble my SBO Rallye over New Years and maybe it will hit the track in March when the 1/4 mile re-opens..

rad

Id welcome any info on them, dyno, track times,workmanship issues etc. From what ive read it seems that both the comp and the edelbrock have to be looked over before using them and for 2000 bucks a set for edelbrocks i shouldnt have to look them over so when i eventually buy procomps im gonna buy them bare and set them up myself but living in north central montana 40 miles from Canada the nearest machine shop is 130 miles away a dyno is non existant and we have an 1/8 mile track 70 miles away and im pretty much the only one for miles that even plays with buick pontiac or olds engines

70cutty

Sorry nothing to contribute to the thread. Just wanted to say that I like my 455 with Procomp heads. Mark is the man, he did an awesome job on the engine. If I had to do it all over, I would do the same thing.
The engine is a monster, tone of torque at any RPM. It's exactly what I wanted. It's a lot of fun to drive and finally I can keep up with my friends. I couldn't do that with a healthy 355.
I don't have any 1/4 mile time slips yet, but next year I will have more time and maybe I'll head to the track.

captjim

A lot of guys lose sight, isn't that the most important thing in the end? Glad it worked out so well!!

coppercutlass

I dont need to keep up with anyone on the street. maybe its the discipline i have but on the street i might get in it here n there but never close to triple digits . At the track my buddies have a hard time keeping up with me they all have modern muscle , 5.0 mustangs , wrx's , lightnings , challangers , i have even put the spank on a few 455's 454's and 440's . The way i see it ., is on the street its just tooling around i have no real use for that power. I want the power for the strip which in 3 months we went about 6 times . I put too much time into my car to risk it on the street and i value my license with my life since i work in the collision field and need it to be employed. I drive the hell out of my car the last 400 miles where all put on driving to the track and back. I know where it matters and on the street there is no need to really hammer it down. I put the power to use where i can really see what it does.

wr1970

Cool if you do go down the track keep us updated.

80 Rocket

Not sure where to begin with a thread like this.

First off, a pro comp head can make power. That's been proven on a dyno. I don't think cutlassefi is one to fudge dyno numbers.

I know that dyno numbers can translate into stellar ETs, but that is up to the end user. 90% of the guys never get the rest of the combination setup right and leave some on the table. And that's ok, I'm sure in time they will hopefully get better/faster. Converters and gearing are a very important part of the equation and without a well rounded setup, there will be some ET left on the table. It is completely possible to have proper gearing and converter and still be completely streetable (looking at you copper).

I've been racing at the drag strip for years. I have put the time in with many different combinations. I had a 13.00 78 Cutlass (3500lbs) with a 350, small valve heads and no porting, almost 9:1 compression, 2200 stall converter and 3.73 gears.....sbc 385 cube dragster (1520lbs) at 11:1 compression, pump fuel, 4600 stall 4.56 gears with a 33" tall tire and ran 8.48.....512" AMC motor in an altered (1830lbs) all out badass race car that went 7.47 @ 175mph.......back to my 80 Cutlass (3100lbs) with a 355 SBO with 10:1 compression, 5000 stall, 4.56 gears, 30" tire, turning those stock rods to 7000+ RPMS which had a time of 11.13 @ 118mph.....not to mention the privilege of driving a badass 69 Cutlass that goes 9.30s @ 143mph (thanks Milan).

12 years of my adult life have been completely (insanely) dedicated to drag racing. So much so that I ended up as the track manager of a legendary dragstrip.

The cars I listed were just a few, I get offers all the time to test pilot other peoples stuff.

What I said above was not to toot my own horn.......I'm almost embarrassed to do so.....well, it is pretty badass.

However, from everything I have learned over the years, I can say that captjim has been spot on with what he has posted so far when he talk about comparing apples to apples (ie: weather conditions and other variables when trying to make meaningful testing).

Also, I never understood the fascination with torque. I concern myself with POWER. What is the equation for power? Power=tq x RPM/ 5252........that's it. You want torque? That's great, get a semi.

You wanna win races? Get POWER. Torque gets a car moving the first 40-60ft at the dragstrip. The dragstrip is 1320ft long. GET POWER!!!!!! Converter and gears can get you moving. GET POWER!!!!!!! You want to make power on the street? GET POWER!!!!!!! You should have plenty of torque down low if your engine makes POWER. Let me repeat, you want to make POWER!!!! If you are towing a boat behind your car on the street, you need torque to get moving. If not, you need POWER.

Lastly, an Edelbrock head is not an aluminum copy of the C cast iron head. It is a vastly superior head to a virgin cast iron head. One simply needs to pop out a valve of an Edelbrock head and admire the bowl and short turn for starters. That alone makes it superior to a cast iron head, and the fact of the matter is, a cast iron head could not have the bowl of an as cast Edelbrock head because you would hit water on a cast iron head.

To the topic at hand, are pro comps a good head? Eh, they are an option. As I have stated before, I would buy with confidence from Bernard Mondello for a pro comp head. There are many vendors on ebay selling them, and there may be other "trusted" vendors selling them. All I know is Bernard checks everything to make sure they are right and his reputation speaks for itself. What I would worry about is the many ebay vendors who sell them......especially complete. Chances are you will get a turd that will eventually cause a failure.

I would never (probably ) use a pro comp because when they first started selling heads, they had all sorts of issues (this was before they did Olds heads). Basically, they used all sorts of hot rodders that bought the heads, for guinea pigs to work out the problems. I have no respect for that. But, the fact of the matter is there is a place for pro comps in the market place because of a price point. From what I hear, they have some potential as well, so there should be no reason to be surprised if someone goes mid/high 9s in a racing application.

Also, I buy from a prominent valve/valve guide source, and they told me they make odd size replacement guides for pro comps. I asked why and he said the guides are junk from the factory, so they found a market to sell guides for pro comps.....even though the heads are new. I guess that's one way to make your pro comps more American.....replace the guides right away. Hahaha!

This was the short version of my post.

buzzbomb

Dont forget the weight savings with aluminum heads and a air gap edelbrock manafold. My 425 toro motor weighed 400 lbs without starter or carb full of 8 qts oil. Thats a hell of a weight savings over the cast iron heads and manafold

80 Rocket

I can make enough power with irons so as not to worry about weight savings.

Haven't seen you around in years ol buzzy. Still having fun with the Chevies?

wr1970

Don thanks for posting. Your prediction that a procomp headed race engine could go mid 9 seconds maybe spot on.That was why i started this thread to see where the bar for these heads is since they have been around a few years. We are not racing dyno's. To many times Captjim wanted to inject what he feels is necessary into the thread that had clear guide lines of what this thread is about. There are all kinds of track variables to consider. i have been racing for 14yrs not bragging or tooting my horn. There is plenty to learn. I don't think anyone has gone faster than mid tens with these heads yet.I also don't think any racer on this site is using these heads yet and can share what level they are at on there combo.So to bring this to a end No results from a actual user of the heads on a race engine going down the 1/4 mi. no ET MPH. I say this because he hasn't posted yet.I don't blame him for not with the clutter in this thread.

captjim

To be fair, how many guys who regularly post here on CO have gone faster than mid 10s with ANY head? This really isn't a hard-core racing site. How many of the combos posted are recent builds? The reason I am a proponent of dyno info is because at this point that is all we have and while dyno numbers aren't the end-all, it is an indication of what is possible. As Don stated, you can have a car/engine combo capable of running high 9s that is running low 11s because it isn't set up correctly or dialed in. Your insistence that track times are the only and/or best way to compare engine performance is flawed, IMHO.

wr1970

You are stating things i didn't say.I never said that track times are the only/ best way to compare engine performance. To be fair you are making comment when you yourself have never used these heads or even attempted to build a engine with ebrocks or rocket racing heads.Do you have good info yes you do.Did you respect the title of this thread no.Did you allow it to evolve with a possible poster who may have run his pro comp heads down the track.HELL NO YOU DIDN'T. On a side note one guy responded on ROP and he went 11.19 119 mph. It didn't have three pages of Captjim arguing what was clear as a title to a thread.I doubt you have the ***** to go check it out for yourself.

captjim

Then why not allow other credible evidence? Still no answer. It does not surprise me that you received more response over at ROP, more serious guys there. As for "*****" to check it out, I have no idea what you mean.

wr1970

Jim you were given the answer don't try and turn this around.The thread had a clear guide line. I stated this over and over. How many times does it take for you to understand the title of the thread? Then in my first post as to what information i was looking for!Not one poster on ROP ranted the way you have here.There was a question that you have ignored from the beginning and still are.A point that i also made who started this thread you or me.The ***** comment is you couldn't handle those guys over there so you hide over here.I have been at that site about as long as it started. I am also on BTR site.

captjim

I have been at ROP since like 2005, I just did not sign up after the last crash, the old-timers all know me there.

Part of the problem is the way you worded the thread, "I heard Pro Comps can make power". Tell you what, start another thread, title and word it "Post your proven track results using Pro Comp heads" and I PROMISE I won't post in it. I just looked at ROP, you worded it better there and left out the "making power" part. Still, very few responses.

And no, you never answered the question as to why you exclude dyno results. I posted the reason why, and everybody here knows it.,

wr1970

That is totally bull and you know it. You are arguing a non valid point because i gave you a answer that you will not accept plain and simple.I will state it one more time. MARK and his dyno results were never in question and was never intended to say anything negative. The title stand as i made it.The first post was and is what info i was looking for. It was a clear and precise title and my post was clear and precise.

coppercutlass

My whole premise to why dyno numbers to me are not really where its at is truly based on my own opinion. The dyno numbers are a tool but then again its a totally diffrent beast once its in the car the dyno is a controlled environment will your car maintain that constant ., its a double edged sword . You will loose power due to many variables once in the car too . As a tuning tool its great and if you have the money to dyno tune your engine its a great way to go to maximize your race set up but the way i see it its pretty useless since i dont have an all out race car and unless you are going to really use the dyno to tune your set up then its a waste. Now chassis dyno is a whole diffrent story.

Now as for me i could step up my set up but something i dont have money for like a better converter and and i dont wanna really gear it much more than i already did by going to a 3.90. Now i didnt really do a whole lot to run what i did i got plenty of things i can change and tweak that should net me lower e/t's . Im also trying to use my set up as a platform. Guys always complain about having to run 4.10's etc etc etc. if my car is street friendly no one can say its not street able. a 3.73 gear is still street friendly 4.10's on the street really are not what most would call street friendly same goes for stall. Im trying to stay within the limits of what most enthusiast would call a nice cruiser yet be fast. Thats why i dont wanna pass a certain threshold . This is all personal opinion though so it is what it is.

wr1970

Copper you know i contacted you on a pm before to clear the air. You reply was there is no hatchet to bury. I respect that and try not to make remarks toward you that will create a pissing contest. I have contacted Captjim more than once but he is at no level willing. His insistence to post remarks to create arguments towards me totally was uncalled for. He also does the same toward you copper. This thread could have had a good discussion.

captjim

That is the EXACT reason why they are a good basis for comparison. No chassis, traction, weather, etc issues. A guy in FL can make a run and a guy in Denver can make a run and then correct for the factors. Rate of acceleration, air temp, coolant temp, fuel delivery are all controlled and constant. Does that exactly manifest itself in an ET? Of course not. But, it is a good tool to get an idea of what to expect from a combination of parts, should someone want to duplicate that build.

wr1970

Here is the lie. here is the insult.