coppercutlass

Well guys as some of you may know. I ran into a head gasket sealing issue. It turned out they where just junk quality. But it lead me to tear down and inspect the swap meet built 355 I built. Well everything was great until I hit the cam . That's where things got real interesting. It appeared as the cam bearing material got pushed out. The cam bearings where not spun but they where beat to hell but oddly not showing copper. So I took the block to rocket racing after having much input from smitty and other engine builders I spoke to along with john stolpa from rrp the consensus was the cam had run out . After we installed the new cam bearings @ rrp we installed a new in the box cam from lunati to make sure the bearings where installed correctly and that the cam spun freely. It did and I dodged a huge bullet. Today we tossed the cam on my friends lathe . We put it on centers and checked for run out. Journal # 5 had zero #4 had almost .005 #3 had .006 number 2 had .005 and number 1 had .0045 . This was a howards grind. I thought I would share this as most literature I have does not cover what or how a proper cam should spin. What I was told was a cam installed dry should spin freely with no drag . Now it goes with out saying this cam sucked ! I hope they do good and replace it and atleast give me some goodies to make up for the damage it did. This also could be avoided if you have your shop just do quick check. I don't know how often something like this happens but for once there is a cam issue on an olds that does not involve the lobes being wiped out lol. Just some food for thought guys I resolved the issue just in time and hopefully no more hiccups along the road as im gearing up for track time late this summer.

cutlassefi

Sorry to hear about your troubles but a couple of points.
If you have runout on the front journal then the bolthole/center on the front of the cam was incorrectly machined from the start. If it was just "bent" the ends would run true. You should have a good case there. But unfortunately I doubt Howards will give you anymore than a cam, maybe lifters too but not much else. They typically only replace the defective parts, not anything else that may be effected by it.

Best of luck.

Edit; If the front has runout, then depending on the where the flaw is your chain would have various amounts of tension. That may have contributed to the bearing wear. Then essentially the center journals were only out a .001 or so. That may be why it turned ok when installed. The real problem is the runout in the front. Imo that's what caused your problem.
Thanks.

coppercutlass

I just want a few shirts lol. I need the cam and lifters and they better replace the whole kit . Otherwise I'm gonna post the crap out of the videos documenting the damage . I'm glad it happend while I was fixing the frame. And the engine was out.

coppercutlass

Ok so howards said it has .003 run out I assume that's split not total . They blame that on me somehow. They said they would straighten the cam out and I said I don't want it ! I want a new one and I guess they flipped. They somehow belive it was not the camshaft that was the issue but tried telling me it was a slew of other things which I de bunked along with other engine builders I spoke to. They said it could have had lack of oil. I then told them well yeah at some point after the cam ate up the bearings the bearing material clogged up the oil passages . Now answer how that happens ? ( no it was not a dry start issue ) I think if the bearings where installed incorrectly I would have seen issues much sooner. They tried telling me I could have been running too much valve spring pressure. I told them I had actually ran them on a smaller comp cams grind. They kept saying it was not the cam but could not come up with a good enough reason on why or how it happened. Considering there was no other damage to the engine I think its safe to say its not on me. If it was I would like to know. I mean I learned a lot from this specifically about cams. I told them to return the cam as was. Im going to put it back on the lathe and record what we get because I think they went ahead and fixed it. Im aggravated but you live and learn. Im buying a lunati cam from rocket racing and I see it only fair as john helped me a lot through out this process. Im really pissed how howards handled it I was told twice they did not have time for this . Im sorry but if you cannot come up with an explanation on why the cam failed on me besides more or less blaming me then yeah im going to get mad. They where very rude . I was pretty pissed on the phone. Regardless of my attitude I think composure should never be broken. That's what pisses me off the most And yet they even swore ! I did but that's on me nothing at them just in regular . I also consulted RRP after I talked to howards just to make sure I wasn't crazy . Sorry about the rant but I will not ever buy one single product from howards ever again. They said they got .003 run out. Im assuming that's total. WE had .006 from zero so split it and that .003. Their cams "leave the facility with no more than .001". The tech kept saying that .003 would not cause damage and it was fine. So let me get the straight They say .003 would not cause damage but yet it has to leave their facility at .001 and .003 is ok ? I think I got the knuckle shuffle and unfortunately for the little guy like me im nothing and I guess so just kick em to the curb. Well to whom ever reads this what do you think . I want to hear if I did something wrong I don't care if im in the wrong but when I cant get an answer to how something fails yet that problem is blamed on me and im essentially told you are screwed all we can do is fix something that already failed yet based on the engine tear down there is nothing else wrong so we are going to blame everything else possible even though its been ruled out . Am I nuts for being a little pissed ? Im not mad about buying a new cam im cheap but not that cheap.




For the record nothing said here portrays what RRP and I talked about and I will not say the details of than conversation to completion just the genral of it all. This is all my personal thoughts.

67 Cutlass Freak

Here's my take on this cam BS. From what you're telling us, I believe the cam was probably straight when you installed it. Howards stated that their cams have no more than .001 runout. So now it's more a matter of what caused the cam to flex and take out the bearings? I believe it was weak material or possably an issue with the bearings being installed incorrect, oil starvation, or abuse. Who really knows? Now comes the matter of how you were treated by Howards. They should not have tried to point the finger at you, even though it may be some what your fault. I figure the odds be 50/50. The most important thing in business is to keep the customer happy. They blew it big time there. You have talked very positively about the performance that you got from Howards, and the cost was reasonable. I know you will never talk them up again. The smartest thing they could have done would have been to appear to be concerned with your problem, and try to resolve it. If I worked for Howards, I would have asked for you to send me the cam bearings shipping on us, send the cam and bearings to the lab. Find out if there was a problem with the alloy in the cam being weak. I would have offered you a 50% discount on a new cam, and do my best to keep a satisfied customer. You should ask John or Mark how they would handle this type of problem. I know neither of those guys builds cams, but they work with the manufacturer. Would they go to bat for you?
Now if I were you, I wouldn't even consider running that same cam that was supposedly, " straightened out". If it was weak alloy it's just going to flex again. I probably would not have wasted my money or time to ship it back to them. Lesson learned - find a better cam manufacturer.

coppercutlass

I told them to fix it and ship it then I would just throw it in the trash. They apperantly have the man hours to straighten the damn cam and re parker it but replacing it is wayyyy too much . Idk how that works ecenomically. Probably cheaper to replace it. I'm running a lunati cam now. I was really happy with the performance of the cam and I'm not going to deny that . My friend has ran howards cams for years which is why I decided to try em out but itsjust my luck this would happen.

Smitty275

I regards to Freaks question if would a vendor go to bat for the customer; I don't know about the others but I would and have. Bullet said to have the customer call and they would handle it. He called, they handled it with a new cam & lifters. That simple. It would be hard for a vendor to do much more than that though. The mark up on camshafts is nothing to talk about and for a vendor to replace one outright would negate the sale of ten or fifteen camshafts. To offer at cost is about the best a vendor could do.

coppercutlass

I was dealing directly with howards cams. This is they way I see it. I work in the collision industry and living in the midwest rust is all but avoidable. I have had to do my share of rust repairs. Now any shop will never garauntee rust repairs. The other day I had a come back on a rust repair on an older lexus suv. Mind you I'm hourly and from. The first time the suv came in I told the manager you can't warranty rust repairs . He said well take care of it its not paying much so don't kill a day on it. Well I fixed it. 3 months later it came back. To me its too soon I have done rust repairs that have lasted years .,and they are fixing it on their dime not the customers btw . Why ? Because fronting 400 dollars will pontentially lead to them buying a new 65k suv because they where treated right. The owner of the dealership once said its the price of doing buisness sometimes but we get to keep a customer for life they wil keep coming back and it will pay off. The dealership I work for is family owned not some big outfit . Howards lost a customer. Had they taken care of me I would have been happy and still had faith in them .

captjim

Just curious about a couple of things, Copper. Did you install that cam or was it already in there? If so, did it spin freely? Seems like if it was that far off you would have noticed it. Did you check to see if the slots in the cam bearings lined up with the holes in the block? Cam bearing can installed incorrectly quite easily.

coppercutlass

Jim The holes where lined up properly. It did spin when I installed it but thinking back it might have been tight compared to what john at rocket racing explained and showed me. The odd part is all 4 bearings had damage on the same exact spots . Now if one was installed incorrectly that would be one thing but for 4 bearings to show damage on the same spots think it can be ruled out . Atleast that's what I think . I have never ran into this issue before and I have had some shady machine shops install cam bearings for me. The set that got trashed was installed by a reputable builder (opel engineering ) BTW The #5 bearing was fine. The cam being dropped can be ruled out I think the way the run out showed up is not consistent with the way that damage would show up. Howards said they had .003 run out I assume that's total because when we check it we went to the lowest spot and measured from there and I have the videos to show the amount of movement in the dial. I documented when we checked it by video . Im just done with this crap I ordered a new cam today from lunati through RRP hopefully its smooth sailing from here on out.

cutlassefi

Read your original post, not too hard to figure out. According to that #5 didn't have any runout, that's the reason it didn't show the same wear as 1-4.
When you install a cam into the cam bearings it should spin freely with no binding anywhere. If it didn't initially then next time you need to make sure it does.

coppercutlass

Yep. You live and learn. Thankfully this was caught before there was catistrophic failure. I'm only about 500 into this repair. It sure beats starting all over again. Hopefully someone else will also learn from this.

coppercutlass

Btw mark I said "the odd part " because according to howards the damage caused was not by run out. Go figure. They kept dancing around the fact it was possibly ground off centers . I'm not an expert but I think its safe to say the cam was crap.

cutlassefi

I think the core was suspect but it should have shown up on the grinder. As far as I know Howards still does all their flat tappet stuff on Berco grinders, not CNC machines.
I bought a roller cam from Comp a couple months ago. I am now a Comp dealer as well. However the first cam I got from them had a problem with the #1 journal, it wasn't ground all the way to the flange. They tried to say it was the core suppliers fault. Not quite, it went thru 2 inspections, once when it was loaded into the CNC, the other when it was checked after completion and checked on their equipment for accuracy. It got past both. It was Comps fault plain and simple. I noticed it as soon as I took it out of the box. I haven't bought another one from them since. Not because it was defective, but because they didn't admit it was their responsibility.

Good luck in your fix.

Macadoo

I've got nothing to add, just sorry about your troubles Copper.

coppercutlass

Mac its a blessing that the head gaskets took a crap. 500 bucks spent now is better than eating 2k to replace the short block. Im still on schedule for track time in august and hopefully hit the last 2 b.o.p races of the year . I thought I was going to be out all season due to the frame repairs I had to do. Luckly my friend and I knocked it out and I have been able to upgrade my fuel system , some wiring , and a few other things to make the car better. I don't care if I race it once I just want a 12 sec. et. on the board and I"ll be happy.

Macadoo

Yeah man, I feel ya. I worked my can off this summer finishing the car but I still have a few weeks to enjoy it before school starts.
So just how fast is a 12 second run?

coppercutlass

On the slow end at 12.99 from what I have seen 103 mph in the 1/4. I actually used to run 13.3 @103 but I did not get to dial in that combo. I have made many many changes since then and have not seen the track since then which was 2 years ago. Im happy with a 12.9x run.

1969w3155

So why are you a Comp Cams dealer?

cutlassefi

I didn't ask to be. One of the guys from Lunati left there and went to Comp. He called me and set me up as a dealer. The rest is history.

coppercutlass

OK so I specifically told howards cams to NOT !, repair the cam because I was going to send it to RRP and have a 3rd opinion . They obviously did. The journal surfaces where polished. I went in the basement and installed the cam into one of the blocks I tested it on prior to shipping and OH MAN what a world of difference . I can turn that cam with one finger with out trying ! Im sorry but im going to go through the effort of posting the vids on youtube to show the difference because in the original video I made it was obvious it took some effort. I guess I have a spare cam now. im not running it in anything I intend to keep for a long time maybe a junkyard build but that's it. Im glad they fixed it but due to me being low on cash I cannot afford to have any other mishap with the cam issue so I bought some piece of mind with the new one. I guess if they fixed it they where covering their tracks I wanted it un repaired.

cutlassefi

Thank you for being honest. Hopefully everyone can learn from this. If it doesn't feel right then don't proceed.

coppercutlass

I'm not affraid to admit defeat. I have plenty of wiggle room on the build and its still within budget . I know guys are probably sitting back and waiting for me to say its gonna blow up which it can due to the use its for. If this stuff dont happen then I'm not learning anything new. I did something right because the rest of the engine was damn near new and although it was fresh I put a lot of hard miles on it. My goal is to be self reliant let's face it all the olds guys aren't getting any younger and most guys who build them aren't gonna hand the info over that easy. I had a hard time finding a guy who would go over the th350 I built with me because guys feel you are trying to run em out of town. I might be stubborn as all hell but when something goes wrong you bet I want to know why and how to avoid it and find out every aspect of it . Thanks mark efi , smitty , and all who chimed in and I also have to thank john @ rocket racing. Who took care of my block on the spot and showed me how to install cam bearings . I posted this info so others can learn from this.