Oldsmaniac

A couple of shots of a project a buddy is working on.

jpc647

Interesting. Is this just for :Let's see if this can be done"

What's the end game for trying to use the ls3 intake on the olds motor? Some obvious benefit?

joe_padavano

Very cool. How close is the matchup of the runners with the ports in the heads?

I've seen an LS-series ram intake used on a BB Chrysler like this. It fit very nicely. The builder simply ordered the intake from E-brock without the bolt holes drilled.

Oldsmaniac

The Wenzler heads are pretty close to lining up to the intake runners I have been told. I have not seen the setup in person. My friend is in Cape Cod and me in NJ. He is working with Sam Murray on this. I imagine if he can get the setup to work it would be beneficial to HP/flow and modern technology/injection with computerized control. Should any updates be had I will post. I would like to see success with this!

oldcutlass

Subscribed for future updates.

Professur

I wouldn't have thought wood would be a good sealing surface.

Oldsmaniac

Right now the wood is only for mock up and design. The setup is not ready to run nor will 2x4's be part of it.

Oldsmaniac

Here is what Sam posted about the heads..

"LS3 meet big block Olds! New Meets Old, prototype mock up of an LS3 fuel injection manifold to Wentzler Olds heads. Amazing how close everything is including the injectors. We are going to use the same rubber seals the manifold uses on the bottom of the adapters as well! NO gaskets SWEET! This will keep the car stealth for sure!"

Professur

If he can make that work, that could add a lot of fresh power to our boat anchors

garys 68&72

Any other details, type of EFI, ignition control, etc?
BTW, the LS3 intake might get a bit restricted for 500hp+.
It is kinda odd how this stuff lines up. The 351 Cleveland exhaust is almost a perfect fit for an LS1 motor.

Boldsmobile

Sam is a class act.

droldsmorland

Way outta control! Sign me up for a set of adapter plates!

Eddie Hansen

Very cool following along

OLD SKL 69

Gotta love engineering, hope to see this working soon and how much power it makes.

Funkwagon455

Subscribed......

Killian_Mörder

LS3s and Chrysler hemis don't have their intake and exhaust ports next to each other. What he's trying to do doesn't make much sense with a manifold designed for evenly-spaced porting. He'd have to find a tarantula designed to line up close to the setup he's got, if one even exists

MDchanic

Cool idea. FWIW, I think he should keep the wood, too - adds a homey touch.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Wood carb spacers for thermal isolation have been around forever. They seal just fine.

83hurstguy

rocket racing/wenzler aftermarket heads like he's using have evenly-spaced intake ports.

Killian_Mörder

If so, the exhaust ports should also be evenly-spaced. Here's the image of what he's trying to set up:

MDchanic

Wenzler intake ports:




Wenzler exhaust ports:



- Eric

joe_padavano

Why? The intake and exhaust port locations at the manifold flanges are completely unrelated. The intakes require a custom intake manifold, that Wenzler also sells. The exhaust port configuration was kept close to stock to allow existing Olds headers to be used.

Killian_Mörder

That's a first. Up until now, every other modern engine made was either equally-distanced ported or near-siamesed. He's going to end up with a head running with a fever around the exhaust ports. A healthy cylinder head should distribute heat evenly

83hurstguy

If the exhaust configuration changed they would maybe have sold 5 sets of heads for the people that wanted to get custom headers... nobody has reported temperature issues to date. If you wanted a modern engine, Olds isn't the place to look...

Killian_Mörder

joe_padavano

Huh? The Wenzler exhaust ports are in the same configuration as on every other Olds head from 1964-1990 (not to mention every SBC from 1955 to the introduction of the LS). Do all of those overheat? As for both intake and exhaust to be either siamese or equal space, what about these from a BBC:




One of the most important drivers on port layout is fitting the ports between the head bolts and pushrods. On a carbureted V-engine, the need for an exhaust crossover port complicates this layout, which is why most V8 engines that ever used a carb have siamesed intake ports. Newer engines that were only produced with EFI (the LS family and the new Hemi, for example) don't need carb heat, so there's more flexibility to locate the ports. The Wenzler heads also deleted the exhaust crossover, so that's why they were able to use the equally spaced intake ports. As noted, while a different exhaust port location would have been preferred, a head that required custom-built headers for every application would have had a very limited market. This is a case of balancing practicality with the ideal design.

Killian_Mörder

Most of them indeed did. However, it was the intake ports which were cast near one another and not the exhaust:



The idea of modernizing an older engine with state-of-the-art technology is great. My only beef is in doing it with compromizes. As complicated as it is to produce new head castings for engines which will not increase in number is financially extreme risky, given that the manufacturer gains windfall only through increased sales. On the other hand, casting exhaust manifolds is much simpler and Ford did so (pictured below), in order to go nearly all the way. That's why I think this head caster should have produced the heads with matching intake as well as exhaust ports and should have offered matching exhaust manifolds, instead of going through all the trouble of restricting the whole set-up, by piping the exhaust into stock outlets



In fact, because of thermal regularities found in even normal set-ups, research has been undertaken for using induction air in cooling areas affected by exhaust heat: http://www.ecv1.com/e-motore.htm

joe_padavano

Which is EXACTLY my point. The exhaust crossover port in the head that feeds the passage through the intake under the carb takes up one possible route between the pushrods and head bolts. This forces the intake ports to the remaining available real estate, which is why they are side-by-side. The Wenzler heads do not have an exhaust crossover anywhere in the head. This provides more available real estate to evenly space the intake ports.

How a turbocharged DOHC engine applies to this discussion is a mystery to me. Obviously without the need to accommodate pushrods, it's much easier to lay out idealized ports. Of course, you could always run the pushrods directly THROUGH the intake ports, like the Ford Tunnelport FE motors.

Killian_Mörder

This was only to demonstrate the importance of trying to get an even temperature throughout the head. It would be interesting to see what you can get out of an Olds, if those heads were attached. To even get them on, you would have to remove the entire clip.
The ones which are the topic of this thread might hold out a drag race or low cruising speeds (55 m.p.h.). But, I'd like to see them used on long stretches of the Autobahn, where there are no speed limits, to see if they don't warp.
In any event, using a high performance intake of this type somehow seems awkward, when designing the heads for stock manifolds. Any restriction of this type somehow defeats the purpose of going through all that trouble in the first place

joe_padavano

And again, the exhaust side (which is hotter and more prone to warping) has exactly the same port configuration as every other Olds head (iron and aluminum), so why is it more prone to warping than those? The evenly spaced intake ports should be better for heat distribution. I think you lack a grasp of the concept here.

As noted above, the exhaust port configuration is a tradeoff of ideal design with practicality from a market size standpoint. The custom intake will fit just about any body you'd put these heads into, so only one design is required. The exhaust headers (NOT manifolds) are model-specific and even year-specific, so ideal, custom exhaust ports would require a large number of custom headers. This may be practical for a Chevy, where the market is a couple of orders of magnitude larger, but is not practical for the small Olds market. What might have been a smarter thing to do would have been to design these heads with an LS-compatible exhaust flange. Then you'd have a boatload of potential headers.

1970-W30

The LS3 to OLDS manifold adaptor would be a perfect project for a 3D printer. Make the initial adaptor out of wood, transfer all dimensions to a CAD program and print it out using plastic or powdered aluminum. I'd love to see it done!!

Killian_Mörder

Because, the double exhaust port configuration is usually (as far as I've ever seen, always in stock applications) cast with double cool-running intake ports directly next to them opposite. Except for the M.E.L. (Mercury, Edsel, Lincoln) engines, like you say, which had to do without the exhaust crossover ports. But, played it safe, through equally spacing out each port:

1964f-85

It dosent look like there are provisions for the water passages? Where wil the radiator hose attach?if milled from aluminum, the spacer will have to include a cross over for the fron and rear with some kind of adaptor for the thermostat and hose at the front. I cant wait to see the finished install.

BBO Omega

I have the RR / Wenzler heads on my car and have found no issues with warping due to heat issues around the exhaust port. There are many of these being used on Jet Boat applications as well. You can't get a more constant high load than running across a lake for 30 min. at a time at 5500rpm. These heads also have an excellent flowing exhaust port as well. I think our German friend is thinking this to death. Must be an Engineer .

Killian_Mörder

I, myself, am not German. My place of residence, however, is. The compliment is nonetheless flattering and I'm glad that some of that engineer mentality has finally rubed off on me

tindrumstoo

isn't that an LS7 intake in the mock up pics?

Bernhard

Cool

BBO Omega

Any updates on this project?

Oldsmaniac

Unfortunately no updates yet...

Dave Siltman

I think there are some valid points discussed here, and some very intelligent members involved in the debate/conversation. As for Sam.....he is a ROCKET SCIENTIST you know?!? Just check the NHRA record books.