67 Cutlass Freak

Here it is guys. The thread you've been looking for. I want to open the discussion up about the different heads that are available for Oldsmobiles, whats needed to make them run, what problems have we seen with any, and what kind of performance has everyone seen out of their heads. I would like everyone to stick to the facts about what they know, what they have personally experienced and not so much what they have heard or read somewhere on the net.

coppercutlass

13.3's. @ 103 mph in the quarter with a 350 10 to 1 compression with #6 heads with just bowl work and big valves and a 280h comp cam. 600cfm carb and. A tight 2200 stall. I must admit I also drove like an idiot and made the stall converter useless by loading wayyyy too high up into it. I'm sure if I drove it better could have hit better numbers along with a bigger carb and a higher stall converter. That's my first hand experience with. Near stock #6's.

kitfoxdave

If you get reliable flow bench data, please get the info to me so I can add it to the spreadsheet in the heads thread.


28" of water for a pressure basis would be ideal.


Thanks guys.
Dave

507OLDS

A good set of ported iron heads will flow about the same as a set of Edelbrocks,out if the box.You will likely have more money invested in the iron heads,by the time they are ready to install.This is likewise for the other aftermarket heads as well.

67 Cutlass Freak

If you go to this website you will find "The List" of the fastest Olds powered rides with information about their builds and what heads were used-


http://www.roadrageracing.ca/oldslist.php


Later I want to talk about the different aluminum heads available and some differences from what I know.

67 Cutlass Freak

From what I understand the Edelbrock aluminum heads for Oldsmobile's were designed to be a direct factory replacement for the original cast iron heads. Joe Mondello helped with the R&D and original design. The most current offering has a 77CC combustion chamber which is just slightly smaller than the cast iron BB chamber. Here's some flow from Edelbrock's website-


http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ain_olds.shtml


These numbers don't seem that impressive to me over stock. I think the biggest advantages to running these heads would be weight savings, higher compession ratios available on pump gas, and ease of porting. It is a lot easier to port aluminum over cast iron. There's a lot more CNC programs available for the Edelbrocks versus cast iron heads. I sure would hate to wreck a set by porting too far, but I think it's actually easier to have the aluminum heads welded for repair. I agree with your statement about cost effectiveness when paying someone to port heads for you. I would definitely choose aluminum in that case. If you wanted to attempt to port at home to try to increase performance, I would suggest to any beginner to start with the cast iron heads for a learning experience and the pride of knowing you invested the time and effort yourself for whatever the outcome. I know everyone is always talking about flow numbers of cylinder heads, and I do believe this is good for a reference point, but flow numbers don't mean everything. It's all about the combination of properly matched components. There was a few different Edelbrock castings. The most current version has a redesigned combustion chamber. It looks real nice, more modern kidney bean shaped. I don't know personally how much better they perform over the previous design. I believe the new Procomp heads were a copied previous Edelbrock design. They may have even purchased the rights to the older castings. They look to be identical. So far everybody seems real happy with there Procomps. The price is very reasonable and one of the only downsides I see is the overseas production.
Right now there's several prominent Olds engine builders that are offering different stages of ported Edelbrocks. Here's a short list:


http://www.btrperformance.com/


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Berna...08309059257851


http://www.mjproformance.com/


http://www.jsmachineoldsmobile.com/home.html


https://www.facebook.com/pages/KTRE-...91814724168123


CJ Smith - Head Machinist @ Joe Mondello Racing Engines
931-459-2760 M-F 8am-5pm
CJSmith@Mondello.com


I know there's a lot of other guys porting heads as well, but I believe these guys are to be considered top notch in the Olds community. If you have had good experiences with others, please share them. This is a good thread to talk about good and bad experiences. Sorry for the long post but I'm just getting started- more to come.

507OLDS

Yes,that's about right.The Edelbrocks were more of a copy of the iron head,with some subtle changes.
Unless you are trying to keep a stock appearance,I would start with some type if aftermarket head. I prefer to start with a bare head,and assemble it as needed,for your application.That way you are not more than what you need.I know the Edelbrocks are advertised as complete heads,but they can also be purchased bare.

380 Racer

Head porters need to give flow numbers for what they have done. Flow numbers must be worth a lot because outfits like Dart, Chad Speir and Larry Meaux give accurate numbers because they take the time and check their work with accurate flow benches.


When I decided on buying the Wenzlers, I talked with a good friend who has owned and did research on both heads. What he showed me is true. The Wenzlers do out perform the Edelbrocks like the flow numbers indicate. They produced the right amount of HP on the dyno and also performed as predicted going down the track. So I believe in honest flow numbers.

67 Cutlass Freak

Nick thanks for your input. It's obvious you have had good success with the Rocket racing heads. Can you give us more input. Have you ever had any problems? I understand that a special intake is needed because of port layout. I believe there's only one or two offered currently for the Rocket Racing heads. Is it true the intake is based on a Ford lay out? I can see how the taller roof and intake lay out would be beneficial for porting. Are custom headers required or can stock port configuration headers be used? For anyone interested here's Rocket Racings Website-


http://www.rocketracingperformance.c..._d74d7f73.html


John Stolpa is the owner and has always treated me real good. His shop is about twenty minutes north from me. They used to have flow numbers on their website, but I didn't see any. Do you know where we can find them in various stages of porting to share here?

380 Racer

I've never had any major problems, only minor stuff. The most problems I had were with the guys I originally sent them to do the porting on them. I trusted them to do it correctly, My engine builder straightened them out.


Both the heads and intake are heavy! So no weight savings there. There is only one intake for them and yes I do know they were using a modified Ford intake in their testing. My heads flow 334 (I will have to find the exhaust #s tomorrow). A 2" open spacer worked well. Dynod with a Holley 1000HP which worked well but it liked a 1050 Dominator better (Thanks Milan).


As far as headers...........the ports are about 1/2" higher so I wound up remotely mounting my System One oil filter.

67 Cutlass Freak

Thanks again for your input Nick. When I went to visit John he showed me a set of his heads, and yes they were heavy. I guess that's good though for rigidity and strength when porting or milling. I have not heard too many complaints about them, all the guys running them seem to love them.
For everyone that's serious about racing an Olds, it's obvious which head stands out for high end performance. The Batten head was developed in the late '70s by CJ Batten. He worked with the GM corporate guys to produce a head designed for Nascar and it took off in the drag racing world as well. Just look at the top ten on "The List" and you will see what I mean. These heads came in thee different castings. You could identify them by the rocker mounting pad. The stage three casting had material all the way across between the rocker pads. I'm not sure what other changes were made between each run of castings. These batten heads were very light and fragile. I had a set that were heavily ported. Here are some photos-
OldsCylinderheads010.jpg
OldsCylinderheads009.jpg
OldsCylinderheads008.jpg
OldsCylinderheads007.jpg
OldsCylinderheads002.jpg
When I got these heads they were already ported but bare. They had some stripped threads on the rocker pads, intake, exhaust and one spark plug. They were a mess. I put steel thread inserts everywhere on the heads. Some machinists don't like the idea of thread inserts in the spark plug holes because of different rates of expansion. I'm not sure what the problem is, if they come loose or what. I sent these to Bill at BTR to look them over. He didn't like the seat area and suggested that I find a different set when I was to get serious about building a high end Olds. It really is about having all the right components that work together properly. This was a few years ago, but at that time, a killer Olds competition engine would have cost close to $20,000. I sold these heads to a guy in California to install on his race boat. He loves them and has been beating the snot out of them.

67 Cutlass Freak

The Bulldog cylinder head showed a lot of promise. They could be identified by the ribs on top of the exhaust ports-
bulldog2.jpg
They used a "D" shaped exhaust port and had a more modern combustion chamber-
bulldog1.jpg
0504phr_07_zoldsmobile_enginecylinder_heads.jpg
Unfortunately these heads were plagued with problems. Core shifting and coolant leakage were what I heard most about. Dick Miller Racing used a set of these heads back in '06 and put out almost 600 HP on a 403 block.


http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...mobile_engine/
I never owned a set of these. Steve-O propelled his heavy car into the nines with these heads, but he also had problems with them. The other big set back for them was when Terry Fritch from FCR purchased the rights to manufacture and sell these heads. He fell into hard times and was forced to pay a lot of money to the IRS. He took deposits for heads and never delivered. There are many unhappy customers out there that have still never got there money back. I don't know if the IRS owns the molds to these heads or who has them now. The Bulldog name has been forever tarnished.

Now on to a brighter note. Over the last couple years a new head has come into development offered by Wise Performance Engineering-
http://wiseperformanceengineering.vp.../Products.html


Here's some images of these promising heads-
wisehead3.jpg
wisecombustionchamber.jpg
wise-oldsmobile-racing-cylinder-head.jpg
Brad Wise offers these heads in a few different stages of porting, you should contact him directly for more information. He used these heads last year in the Engine Masters Challenge to produce 876 HP out of a 476 CI Diesel block build. Unfortunately he did not finish the competition because of a gasket failure. You can see the article here-
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...mobile_engine/
Brad has gotten a lot of grief over on ROP for not delivering on his heads. It's my opinion that the folks bashing him really do not understand what it takes to bring a new product like this to market. It takes time, and money to R&D. I know Brad does not want to sell an inferior product, and go down the same path as the Bullfrog heads. If he had the deep pockets of a huge corporation like Edelbrock, there would be a different story. There has been a few people that have approached Edelbrock about offering a newly designed race orientated Olds casting. They declined and were happy to sell to the masses. They are looking at profitability not high end race performance. The current castings from Edelbrock, fully ported, naturally aspirated, can only support about 750 HP.
We in the Olds community really should be thanking guys like Brad, who go out on a limb, to offer new high performance products for a very elite few.

cutlassefi

Lots of good info here for the Olds enthusiast. This should be a sticky.

Here are some pics;
A side by side of a stock out of the box Procomp vs. a Knowlten CNC ported 2.125 intake valve Edelbrock, plus more pics of the Edelbrock and PC.

Notice the smoother chamber in the PC. At that point it looks like a better casting.
However it also seems as if the plug on the Edelbrock head is aimed at more at the exhaust valve. That's a good thing but not sure how much of a difference that will make as no one has yet to do a side by side dyno test.

507OLDS

I know when I went looking for a set of Battens,I passed over about 12 different pairs,before I found the right ones.Most of them are just not done right,to maximize their potential.Your best bet was to find a raw set,and someone that knew where to put everything,or find a set that were done correctly in the first place.I found a set that were done by Dave Jack,who has also done some of they other Battens on the other serious-powered Oldsmobiles.They were heavily modified.A lot of welding,moving & relocating.They didn't look like your typical batten head,when they were done.They made very respectable flow numbers,but the real proof came when they were dynoed on an engine,then the engine put the car down the track.
I chose not to keep them for the simple reason of trying to find a replacement,if one would be needed.I was going to use them in a regular basis,driving the car regularly,as well as taking it to the track.If I ruin one head,it would be difficult to replace it.What about 20 years from now?
Go with something readily available,and still made.
I have also seen some nice heads,with modest flow numbers,but made greater power than expected,and better ET's than expected,so like CutlassFreak said earlier,the flow numbers are NOT everything,but some like to inflate or exploit them for sales reasons,or to pump up there chest.
In my opinion,the Edelbrocks,Pro-comp copies,or the Rocket Racing heads,are the only choices to consider.
The wise heads are far from being readily available yet.Put the horse before the cart,and go from there.

67 Cutlass Freak

Thanks for sharing Mark. You have saved me the trouble of uploading images of the Procomps. Knowltons really does nice work. I have not had any experience with the Procomps, but everyone seems to like them. I have heard out of the box Edelbrocks are a little lacking in the valve job and the quality of components installed- specifically the springs. What's your thoughts about the Procomps out of the box? For a performance build, does the valve job look good, or would you recommend purchasing a bare set?
I know there's a lot of different sources for the Procomps, but it seems like Bernard Mondello has sold more than everyone else put together. He is a good guy to deal with and offers them in various combinations-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BERNARD-MOND...0c61c9&vxp=mtr

67 Cutlass Freak

507OLDS is absolutely correct about the Battens being set up correctly and limited availability. They just seem too fragile to me. Back in 2007 Joe Mondello was still sponsoring the Olds race in Byron Illinois. I saw him there and he was showing off his new heads which were co sponsored with Knowltons. They looked really nice with huge ports. At that time they were top secret and would not allow any photos. He was also showing off his new patented wet flow bench. over on another website Smitty had this to say about those heads-


"The Mondello/Knowlton heads have the ports arrainged like a Batten head and the ports are very large. Not recommended for street use. No internal oil return hole, must be plummed from head to the pan. They require a Batten style intake to work. Preferrably heavily ported. If your lucky you might find an early Victor Jr. intake from Edelbrock that was made specifically for the Batten heads on an SBO."


I searched the net to try to find some photos of these heads but had no luck. I think that very few sets were made. Back in '07 Joe told me the base price for stage one porting was $5000, but it did include the intake. I went to Mondello Performance Products website this morning but saw nothing about these Knowlton heads. I wonder if they no longer offer them?

507OLDS

When I had my Battens,I was fortunate to find an NOS Batten Victor BBO intake,about an hour from me.Otherwise I was looking at having a sheet metal intake made.

jfb

I had a earlier build and switched from iron to edelbrocks, The edelbrocks were cut 45 thousands and blended in the bowls only and total compression was 10.25 to 1. the difference was 47 net and 58 to 60 gross. I now have a different combo and different numbers and stage 2 porting. this was all on 455,s .040 over.

815Cutlass1972

X2 on flow numbers are NOT everything.

67 Cutlass Freak

I saw this impressive build over on ROP. These would be max ported cast iron "C" heads-
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic2786.html


Posted by bigredolds » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:50 am
hello all,i have some info you can ponder.
455 FO block bored to 4.185 decked to 10.620
factory 425 crank,stroked to 4.360,2.100 pin,internal balance,ATI damper
479 cid
GRP rods 7.400 long
J@E flat top piston,1.030 pin height,1/16-1/16-3/16 ring,weigh 426g
12.4 to 1 comp
cometic .040 gasket,7/16 ARP fasteners
comp solid roller,265/274,.694/.696 installed at 105
iron c head,floors filled .500,roof raised.500,2.100I/1.700E,75cc chamber
heads flow 285 intake/205 exhaust,ported by my ownbadself.
victor intake 4150 flange,.500 spacer plates,wilson 1'' 4 hole spacer ported by myself
Avanti TRC 850 carb
moroso vaccum pump at 10''
custom pan by me,melling hv pump
hooker 2'' headers,3 1/2'' exhaust magnaflow mufflers
th400,a1 8'' converter,stalls at 4400,footbraked
Car is 73 442,14/32 tire,12 bolt spool 4.56 cog,street driven
weighs 3459 with driver and 9 gallons of fuel
shift at 6600
1.351-60'
3.9759-330'
6.2159-1/8 109.53 MPH
8.1609-1000' 125.29 MPH
9.8179-1/4 135.52 MPH
big thanks to my bro mike moshier the best F'ing engine builder you've never heard of.


This build was done by Milan featuring a big valve "C" head with no porting, very street able nice numbers-


http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic2913.html

380 Racer

I stand behind what I said.

67 Cutlass Freak

Nick I'm not sure what you mean by this. Which comment were you referring to? By the way do you have any photos of your Rocket Racing Heads on or off the car? I searched the net and did not find too much. By the way, how did Jok finish the season?
ActualRRhead.jpg

cutlassefi

Take a peak at the post from "kitfoxdave". He has the flow specs for edelbrocks before and after a valve job.
The seats look fine on the PC's but if you look closely you'll see there's room to open them up a bit below the seat. I'll bet that the PC's will flow about the same as the edelbrocks, apples to apples.
And for less than all out build I'd recommend buying a set of bare PC's, have them ported either by someone's CNC program or a reputable head porter. Then assemble them with the parts of your choice. At that point you'll have a set of heads that'll support over 600hp with good pieces in it for just over 2k. That's not bad for an Olds piece imo.

380 Racer

This is what I was referring to.

380 Racer

Jok wound up 3rd in points, 4 rounds out of first.

67 Cutlass Freak

Definitely something to be proud of. You know everybody sais flow numbers don't mean everything, and I agree to a certain extent, but we still need a standard or a measurement reference point. I think it all comes down to the combination of engine parts and the ability to put the power to the pavement. From what I have read the flow bench desktop HP calculators are pretty accurate at predicting actual HP potential. Thanks again for your input.

815Cutlass1972

That was a statement I agree with. It has nothing to do with what you stand by, because I didn't challenge that. Of course John's heads outflow Edelbrocks I'm not denying that one bit. I wouldn't of had John machine my engine if I didn't think he was honest about his work and products.

cutlassefi

Maybe not, but they still mean a lot. You're not going to make 600 hp very easily with heads that only flow 200 at peak.
But that's the key, WHERE do they flow best.
Don't concern yourselves with flow at .100 or even at .600 if your cam doesnt allow it to go that high. Your valve spends most of its time between .200-.500, especially with a cam of .600 lift or so.
A good all around combination will optimize all the pieces being used.

815Cutlass1972

Mark, I have been gathering pieces for another engine. I've been entertaining the idea of a set of edelbrock vs procomp for a side by side test on the dyno. I'm thinking of adding a ported iron head to this comparison.

cutlassefi

That would be a great thing for all of us.
But to keep it apples to apples and keep costs down, I'd get both sets of heads bare, then have the same shop do the valve job on both. From there I'd use the same pieces (valves, springs) as well. That way any difference would be solely on the heads themselves.
Keep us posted. Thanks.

67 Cutlass Freak

I would love to supply the ported cast irons for this test. I could hand deliver them to save on shipping. These are a typical home port job, not too crazy GA castings. We may have these heads flow tested as well to give some good comparison numbers. The chambers have not been cut down so that might hinder their performance in a side by side comparison. I could also supply a Victor manifold for testing. Contact me if you'd like when you get serious- Dave

815Cutlass1972

Dave, I'll keep you in the loop, as I continue to gather more parts for this build. Maybe when J-Chicago comes up your way again I'll go with him.

67 Cutlass Freak

You're welcome to come up any time. We always have a good time together, but usually don't get too much work done. If you talk to the "J" man tell him I have a calendar for him, but if he doesn't get his *** up here soon he's going to miss the January photo, and it's a good one.

507OLDS

Like Mark said,you also have to watch where the heads start to flow good numbers.Some of them will have a great number,but it will be at .700" lift,and the majority of your cams are nowhere near there.They can be a dud below that.Look at the whole spectrum.

ROBZ442

Here are pictures of the ported Pro Comps that are going on my 400E based 488. Once completed (still a few months out) it will get plenty of dyno time, the results will be posted.

Head1_zps11c1e4a2.jpgHead6_zps0f6ac3f2.jpgHead3_zpse5def50d.jpgHead9_zps9a76d7ca.jpgHead4_zps62b0c541.jpg

cutlassefi

Rob who did them? Any claims about flow numbers? Thanks for sharing.

ROBZ442

The heads were done by Mondello (not Bernard) and if I remember correctly they were right around 300 cfm. They were bought over a year ago and things have been progressing very slowly. I should be able to check the specs tomorrow and let you know. They have been gone through (as per Bernard) and only needed the exhaust guides opened up a little.

815Cutlass1972

Rob, I was wondering what was going on with your build. 488 huh. That should be a bruiser. Are you going to use Kevin Engelkings Dyno out in Rock City?

olds 307 and 403

Good pics of the two chambers. The Edelbrock chamber should be slightly more efficient, just by the shape and spark plug location. Interesting to hear about the port shape and huge chamber. A 350 owner would need 14cc removed and the intake milled the same amount, bummer. The electric fuel pump, roller rockers and quality head gaskets would be done anyways. Just kills the simple bolt on for us SBO guys.

captjim

Domed piston!