Smitty275

Acid would hide nothing in this case. Absolutely nothing. Acid eats at the same rate no matter what. So it would only make the entire port larger and discolored. It would NOT put back the "as cast" look and would be easy to spot by even the untrained eye.

67 Cutlass Freak

You guys can talk about it. I really don't care. I was just bustin' your *****. This is no longer my thread. This is our thread. Everybody that has contributed is partial owner. I was just the crazy SOB that started all this. I appreciate your posting the pictures. I am a little bit curious how effective the extrude honing process is. Do you have any before and after flow data Trip Deuces? Would you care to share the cost of doing your intake, or maybe a set of heads?

Bernhard

This was a hot topic in the 90's in stock as a lot of cars sported a no acid ported sticker.

TripDeuces

I got my intake extrudehoned by a company in PA called Kennametal in PA which at the time was the east coast outlet for them. That was over a year ago and since then Kennametal is now strictly industrial and military. However Extrudehone is still in CA. http://extrudehoneafm.com/.

I know I've mentioned this all before on some thread in here but I'll rehash it. The process is not cheap but I knew that my intake would be the choke point on my engine (496, there's a thread on that in here too) and I wanted more flow. It will cost more to do cast iron than aluminum because the process takes longer to cut the cast iron and achieve the desired result. The prices aren't listed anymore but I think it was around $800 for the intake but due to my elongated wait I was discounted $200 so call it $600. Like I said, not cheap. Aluminum is roughly 1-2 to 2/3 of that. I cut the dividers down to within a 1/4 inch from the floor to make a dual plane/single plane hybrid, once again for flow.

I never got the intake flowed before or after but while I was getting a tour of the facility they told me that a Pontiac Tri-Power cast iron intake picked up 32hp. What engines mods, etc. he had I couldn't tell you but that would obviously make a difference. They take roughly about 1mm off all the way around. 1mm is roughly .040 inch so you're looking at .080 overall give or take. I can attest to that because it's very obvious in some parts of my intake that more was taken away in certain places. This is all a function of the process which is basically Silly Putty filled with abrasives. They are the largest users of Silly Putty in the country, true story. The media is pushed back and forth through the part and wherever resistance is met more force is applied and of course more will be removed from that spot. They claim a 25% increase in flow through the part and that is what they shoot for during the process. The piece is tested to see that the 25% is met. Now whether that was done to mine I couldn't tell you because I never got a print out or anything. I know they were up against a deadline with their military contracts at the time and is part of the reason I got a partial refund.
If you think about it a 25% increase in flow is pretty substantial and my ports and passages are definitely bigger throughout. What that equates to in horsepower I couldn't tell you.
Almost forgot, I haven't gotten the engine together yet and there won't be a way for me to compare before and after but I have no doubt it will work as advertised.

67 Cutlass Freak

Recently I ported a set of heads for my good friend Jeremy, J-(Chicago). We ended up puting guides in them and oversized valves. We spent more on them then we wanted to. I was going to match port a cast iron intake to the heads just 'cause we're both goofy in the head. I saw that dr dan had a Holley Street Dominator in the for sale section so I gave him a call. Here's where it gets good. I have never met Dan, but we have spoke on the phone a few times. I consider him a friend. From time to time I have helped him with some junk I had laying around here, like a power steering pulley and an engine hold down cable set up. I saw his ads in the wanted section and I wanted to help him out. So I gave him the junk. He tells me that I can have the intake for the cost of shipping. I didn't expect that. Dan has offered to help me on my car, but we're too far apart and I'm still short on funds. I got the intake and decided to clean it up a little for J. It turned out real nice and I'm still going to match port it for him but he needs to lay it out for me during pre assembly.
I just wanted to let you guys know, sometimes it does pay to be generous, and there's nothing wrong with giving away the junk you've been stock piling for years that you will never use. I hit up the parts wanted section every time I log in.
A BIG THANKYOU dr dan for you're generosity. Jeremy will put this to good use. I think it might be a little too nice for him. He's used to making junk work for him.
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J-(Chicago)

It helps great things get started, or finished. A 100% functional car that only receives 70% of the stuff you wanted to put on it, is better than a 0% functional car that stays 70% complete. I learned this the hard way.
It happens to the best of us sometimes, and all it takes is a nice gesture and a kick in the **** for a little motivation.

For example, my "race" delta has been apart for 6 years, but I would drive the gray 455 beater delta 88, the v6 delta and the 83 electra all the time. They're all slow, but they're more fun and more useful than a $15000 shelf

J-(Chicago)

Do as I say, and not as I do haha.

I'm a definite softy for strays. I've saved 7 cars from the junkyard put them back together and gotten them back on the road. None of them were desirable cars, but I had so much extra olds junk laying around, I didn't want them to be crushed If I could slap them back together and make use of them. I do that a lot, and it's a bad habit of mine because I should just concentrate on 1 thing.

I don't need 7 Oldsmobiles.

I've discovered that A lot of people whine when an Oldsmobile is getting parted out, but none of those people whining are out there saving them with their own wallets. AND even once I do save them, and invest the time, effort, and parts to get them back to functional......people only want to give you 500 dollars for "that old car".

I have reached my limit. 7 is enough, and the adoption agency is closing its doors. If someone gave me a basket case real W-30 car tomorrow, I would euthanize it.

Doing a thousand dollar pair of junk iron heads for the guys here on the forum was fun, but I don't even have a wicked short block to toss them on. I'll need to focus on achieving that, or all the hard work and money will ever turn out to be... is this conversation piece.

Smitty275

Dr Dan is definitely one of the good guys.

RandyS

Damn, that is a sweet looking Intake!!

67 Cutlass Freak

Yeah it just needed a little spit shinin'. If you liked that one, I know you'll like this one-
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Bernhard

Sweet that takes me back to the 70's
Old school is cool
I look forward to hearing about your builds when they are done.
This has been a very good thread covering a lot of topics even learned a lot more about the extrude honing process.
You might have to re-polish the tunnel ram that street dom is blinding.

Boldsmobile

i like bling too

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coppercutlass

Well I thought I wouls post this up. Here are the #6 heads RRP did for me some time back. I have cleaned them up and they will be going back onto my 355 which I had a little issue with but its all fixed up and it will be put together. Im going to share the picture of the intake side and the heads themselves. This was just a competition valve job with big valves. We will be doing track testing. Im going to run this set up as is then we will swap to the other #6's 67cutlassfreak did for me and we will see what the gains will bring e/t wise. Dyno numbers are over rated the only numbers I care about are MPH and E/T . The game plan is to pic a weekend in the fall where the temps will be similar along with conditions run the car all day Saturday then swap them out Saturday afternoon and run it sunday. baselines will be no tuning just swaping over and running it unless the set up requires off the bat tuning then we will jet and set up to see our max gains possible.










If you guys are interested in specific pics ask now because they are sitting in my basement.

67 Cutlass Freak

OK there are some pictures I would like from you. Please take them outside in the day light and forget the flash. Please take the frost filter off your lens, or use another camera. I would like to see a shot straight down into each bowl, as close as you can get but still in focus. These heads did not have any runner work correct? Thanks for your input MR Copper.

coppercutlass

Alright freakman I hope these will be good enough.








The area under the valve seat looks like a taper but its a slight ridge where the opening to accept the bigger valve stopped.

67 Cutlass Freak

This thread has been kind of dead lately, but I have some track results on my SB with the BB GA heads that I ported.
First I want to review the combination. I'm sure there's going to be some details left out, like build clearances, and cam specs, but if anybody is interested I will share them.


Here's the combination:
Olds 350 CI Race Engine
1972 350CI engine block core
1967 330 steel crank core
1967 Flex plate
1972 Damper
Stock steel rods polished, shot peened, notched, bushed
JE Pistons Custom dome 2300077 $680.75
Rings J100F84080-5 $100.00
Rod bearings 02-5029 $60.00
Main Bearings MS805P20 $60.00
Rod bushings 02-5029 $40.00
(2) Heavy metal slug 1”X1” $70.00
ARP rod bolt RB-200 $58.00
Freeze plug kit FP-640 $14.00
Race Cam Bearings RCB-499 $69.00
Gasket Set GS-550 $95.00
High Volume Oil Pump SP-754 $69.00
Bolt on pick up PU-3 $35.00
J&S 5 Main Halo $250.00
J&S Main Stud kit $85.00
Custom modern grind cam/ lifters $265.00 Thank you Mark - CutlassEFI
Machine Work Performed by LAM Racing Engines
Install rod bushings, Fit/ assemble rods & pistons,
final polish rod beams, Recondition rods with ARP bolts-
includes R&R bolts, machine oil relief grooves in rods,
deck block, piston height + .0001,
Balance rotating assembly, regrind crank
Rods - .020 Mains - .020, install slugs of heavy metal (mill),
Install main studs, mill for main girdle (halo) to 2.175 depth of caps
Dial bore gauge main bearing bores, low limit to middle of spec,
Final wash block and install cam bearings & freeze plugs, check main
bearing clearance and ring end gaps. Total machine shop services - $1311
Final assembly and measurement performed by Dane Lulling of
Mild to Wild Racing $400
total short block investment- $3825.75


Cylinder heads are GA big block castings. Raised roof .100 on intake and exhaust, some widening, nothing crazy. Stock guides and seats. Filled heat risers, welded exhaust dividers. With the porting and valve job I have close to 80 hours into these heads.
Port work and valve job $800.
Valves were purchased from Bernard Mondello. 2.07" intake, 1.68" exhaust, .010 longer than stock stainless steel with tuliped stem.
Valves - $130 both sets.
I believe they came from Speedmaster, but Bernard measured each stem for quality control.
Harland Sharp Roller rockers $280
Guide plates $25
Custom push rods $120
Seals $25
3/8" rocker studs $150
Heads were milled .050" compression ratio 11.4:1
Rocker studs drilled and tapped, intake milled by Rocket Racing - $250
MSD pro billet distributor $285
Victor SB intake manifold $430
Port work on intake $200
Ignition wire set and spark plugs - $120
Deep oil pan and valve covers are on loan, donated from J(Chicago) -
BIG THANKYOU
Top end $2815
Total engine investment - $6640.75


This engine was sitting under my work bench for a couple years. I worked out a deal with my good friend Don, (80 Rocket) to sponsor his race car. He spent some coin to finish this engine and buckle up the top end.


Don's car is a 1980 Cutlass, foot brake, with a turbo 350 trans, 456 rear end gears, stock suspension, tiny 1 3/4" headers, 3600# with driver. The car does have a roll cage, but nothing special to look at. Paint job looks like black rattle can done by 8 year olds. I love it, total sleeper. Don put his electric water pump on, and a Holley 750 from his dragster. He has the MSD grid system.
The car went down the track for the first time last Thursday. Went 12.18 out of the gate first run, with a horrible bog off the line, 1.85 60' time. He lifted a couple hundred feet from the lights, and crossed at 97 MPH. He had a problem with the dome piston impacting with the spark plug electrode. Guess we should have put the plug in when we were checking for piston to valve clearance. Luckily, John from Rocket Racing was at the track, and had some old plugs to double up the washers on. No more clearance issues.
Today Don went back to the track to mess around a little more. He set the timing to 38 degrees. He's still having trouble with a bog off the line. We're going to try a different carb set up, he also thinks there's not enough stall in the converter. The car went 11.68 with a crappy 1.70 60' time @ 115 MPH crossing the stripe @ 6500 RPM. We still have a lot of tuning to go, but I'm really impressed with this SB Olds. Don thinks this combo should see 11.40 with out too much trouble. The on line HP calculator puts us just over 450 HP out of this junk.
Not too bad for a SB with BB heads.

coppercutlass

its like someone turned the lights on in the kitchen and the cockroaches scrammed lol. I cant believe even after the flow numbers no one said anything about that. In the beginning everyone was quick to point out failure but now I guess no one has anything to say.


I thought that 355 would have run 11.50's in my 72 and I was damn close my car I think is close in weight to dons but he has plenty of gear in it. I wanna see that damn thing run. I think my junk will be wrapped up pretty soon hopefully we can all hit the track. Junkmen unite lol.

Smitty275

Only a few were of the "failure" mode. Sounds like a real nice piece and should be reliable.

captjim

I am not sure what the point of this post was? Nobody said that you could not make the heads flow, the question was always the cost effectiveness of using iron vs aluminum. After all, he has $6600 in this engine and a TON of hours (80, he stated) in the heads alone. That port work at a conservative price puts the engine close to ten grand with assembly. Nobody said you could not make an iron-headed engine run. He used quality parts and machine work in this engine, I don't think anyone would classify it as a "budget build".

coppercutlass

Don't know what the point of your post was either. I just said there was naysayers which there was and now after the flow numbers no one said anything . That was my point. No one said anything about budget jim . You are bringing things up which where never mentioned by me. I never once said the build was "budget" quote me on it. The whole point of this thread was to show guys where and how to grind on their heads so they can keep things "cheap" so to speak. Also that build is a race engine pretty much so 6.6k I would call it a budget build. Doing things your self is usually done to learn and to spend less cash so yeah .


I simply made a joke and stated the obvious. Don't know how you interpreted what I said as a way to get into a topic of budget nor do I have a clue as to WTF your rant was about because the question was never asked nor was the topic brought up at this point in the thread.

67 Cutlass Freak

Jim, I just wanted to clarify a couple of things. First I made a mistake about Don's car weight. It's actually 3060 pounds. I heard him wrong. So he kind of blew the wind out of my sails with that detail. This lowers the calculated projected HP. Throughout this thread you have been the voice of reason concerning the debate - to port or to ProComp. I really do appreciate your posts playing devils advocate. Porting is certainly not for everyone. If you look back through my list you will see I added $800 for porting/ valve job on the heads, and $200 for porting the intake. I know a pro porter, or machine shop would be double or triple that. Even Smitty, Zed, and Cody said a basic port job on cast iron heads would be roughly $2000. Recently, Smitty had a customers "C" ported heads for sale, which may have sold, for $900. I think that's a very fair price, and I realize to value my ported heads at $2000 would be ridiculous. I started this thread as a motivator, and to encourage others to port their cast iron junk. Jeremy's SB heads, that I ported, out performed the as cast ProComps out of the box. That's SB vs BB. I did not have my "G" heads flowed, but I guarantee the flow numbers would be significantly higher. I did pay an expert to assemble the short block. That is reflected on my list. The only thing I forgot to list the springs and retainers. Those were $160. So this budget build was actually $6800. Now I didn't say low budget, but it was not $10,000. I'm sure some of the components could be purchased used for significant savings. I just wanted to share this build with others so they could gauge whether or not they were getting a fair deal from their builder. I still think that if you have the time, space, tools, and desire to become intimate with your cylinder heads, than porting might be for you. If you have an extra grand laying around, than ProComps might be right for you. Just remember that is a starting point with budget components installed in the ProComps. The price goes up from there for quality components and a good valve job.

captjim

I think your prices are pretty much spot on; $3800 for the short block and $2000 +/- for the heads, whichever route one chooses plus the other goodies. $6500-$7000 seems reasonable for a quality build, it kinda updates my old "cost to build a 355" thread with current prices. You should post those prices in a new thread to make it easier to refer back.

coppercutlass

You are comparing apples to oranges jim. I don't think your engine went 11.60's .

captjim

I never said it did. Look up the word "update" in the dictionary. The budget in the post I made was around $4,000, I was just giving Freak credit for updating the price taking into account both the increase in performance along with it being 2014.

coppercutlass

I think you can still build an sbo for 4k today with proper parts. Like yours jim. I don't think prices have gone up a whole lot. He had custom made pistons , main studs , halo girdle , that alone adds a significant amount. Compared to a build like yours . My current 355 started out as a swap meet piece but it was a wash since it needed a balance and a block. So in reality I got pistons out of the deal for the same price as new. I had appx 3700 into that and all the parts where new the heads where done by rrp . This was 2 years ago. I belive dave sat on that engine for a while before wrapping it up. To build the same engine you did might cost a little bit more but I can't see it being significantly more to the point it will reflect the prices 67cutlassfreak mentioned since he went the extra mile for more hp which cost more. The only thing I did not pop for was an align hone and arp bolts for the mains , rods and heads but I think I spent more on my top end possibly than what you did money wise. Not saying your prices are outrageous just saying to say its an update on pricing you really can't compare to yours to call it an update since its a totally diffrent extreme.

captjim

I did NOT say that you couldn't, please read the post. I stated,
" I was just giving Freak credit for updating the price taking into account both the increase in performance along with it being 2014."

BOTH THE INCREASE IN POWER ALONG WITH IT BEING 2014

Also, again I think for comparison purposes, you have to use new prices, not used or horsetrading deals. Just my opinion.

Also, regarding the build which should be a reliable bracket engine, I would have upgraded the rods and skipped the HALO, but that is just my personal opinion. I think over 400 HP new rods are a good investment for not a lot of money.

J-(Chicago)

x2.

67 Cutlass Freak

Well if I were to do it all over again, and if I were building this engine for myself, I would have gone with flat top pistons, stroker rods, ATI balancer, and an SFI flexplate. I kind of look at the Halo as cheap insurance. I think it's better than nothing or straps. I think the Olds 350 block may be stronger than the 455. I really don't know at what level lower end support becomes necessary. On a side note, the prices I posted for the short block are ten years old. I was kind of helping a friend out with this build and he bailed on the hole project. I got stuck with the bill. Lucky me. At least we're going to put this motor through it's paces. I know Don's not going to baby it.

captjim

Sorry to hear the prices are ten years old, so it really isn't a true reflection of what that engine would cost to build, it may be closer to ten grand as I mentioned. IMO the 350 block is much stronger than the 455, especially with the lighter parts and shorter arm. The halo certainly won't hurt anything, how much it helps had been the subject of debate for years.

Smitty275

I dont think I would classify the small block as stronger. Its just not subjected to the same kinds of stresses to break it apart.

Yes, there has been much debate about the "step ladder". LOL

captjim

That is fair, the BBO has a longer stroke with heavier parts, but that IS also part of the overall combo.

Bernhard

The big block headed small block is working well, congrats.

I see you have a healthy 11.41 comp ratio 4:56 rear gear.
How do you think the big block headed small block would perform with 9.5 comp ratio and 3:42 - 3:73 gear.

So when should one look at the big block head on ones small block?

67 Cutlass Freak

To Bernard, and anyone else interested - I believe the BB head on a SB is the right choice 100% of the time, as long as you are willing to take the steps to get the compression back up to where it needs to be. Use an intake, like the Edelbrock RPM Performer, that has enough roof material, to match the ports. If one was considering bolting the ProComp, or E-brock heads on a SB, they would have to take these same steps. The combustion chamber on the E-brocks is real close to 77CCs. Most SB cast iron heads are close to 70CCs. That means one would have to shave approximately .040" to get the compression back up to stock area. Take a look at this flow number comparison chart that kitfoxdave put together-

This chart is a pretty good comparison of flow capability. IMHO to do a side by side comparison of SB, and BB heads on a small block engine, provided the compression was the same, the BB head would win across the board. The problem comes in when people aren't willing to take the steps to get the compression back up. You hear all kinds of horror stories about how the engine ran so much crappier with BB heads. Well no **** - you just took over a point of compression out of your engine. What did you think would happen. Bernard, I saw your questions on ROP, and I was going to answer them, after I talked to Don. I'm going to meet him at the track later today, and I will finally get to see my engine run. This SB has been a thorn in my side. I dumped over 5 grand into this thing to help out a different friend. He was going to pay me back, but then he joined the military, got married, had two kids, and basically had better priorities. I tried to sell the engine at a huge loss, but no one wanted it. I think everyone was afraid of the dome pistons. We could have left the compression ratio at 10.5:1, but we decided to pump it back up by milling the BB heads. I'll snap off some photos and post them up.

Bernhard

Thanks for the reply.
I look forward to hearing more about this build.
I could see a lot of sbo builds going this way if they work well on pump gas and street friendly gear.
I know Bill T mentioned it in his book but assumed it was for serious performance builds not all builds.
I look forward to hearing more about bb headed small block builds.

455man

I think 100% of the time is a bit much. I would assume the increased flow would decrease torque at lower RPMs and could hurt a lower spinning RPM motor. Say a hotter than stock sbo street motor with 3.23 gears that only spins 5000rpms. I'd think there would be a point where it would be too much flow. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

captjim

I agree completely, was just waiting for someone else to say it. On an 8.5 to 1 355 in a DD with a 3.08-3.42 gear and a cam in the 210 @ .050 range, SBO heads and a Performer intake are probably a better choice. For a hot street engine or weekend street/strip car; OK.

coppercutlass

When we had the iron vs. Aluminum debate wasn't the whole port size vs velocity effect debunked for the sbo? I think it may have been cutlassefi or smitty can't remember who. But when we where going back and forth about the procomps being so affordable that people should just toss the irons port velocity was a topic that was mentioned and it was said that it wouldn't be an issue with most mild to street\strip engines . Now a lazy low compression engine maybe but who the hell buys aluminum heads for such a dog of an engine.

TripDeuces

"I would assume the increased flow would decrease torque at lower RPMs and could hurt a lower spinning RPM motor."

I don't understand this statement. Can you clarify?

Bernhard

With the aluminum head you have the advantage being able to bump the compression 1 point higher on pump gas ,this should help with low end loss of tq for a street car. I look forward to more bb headed builds and the results from there build.
Copper any future plans of trying a set of big block heads on one of your builds?
I know you have a pair well flowing small block heads that you are going to be running on your latest build.
It will be interesting to see what et/mph BB iron headed small blocks will yield.
I would also like to see what rpm these engines are shifting at and if they hold a advantage from 2000 rpm and up.

coppercutlass

HUH ? the aluminums have bb sized chambers. You would not be gaining any compression unless you had a zero decked block and even then you need to mill the heads to get some decent compression on the small block. Unless you are talking about being able to run pump gas with more compression due to the characteristics of the aluminum heads then yes. I was talking in terms of the whole port velocity. But it was thrown out there that you could not do bbo heads on say a 9 to 1 engine. Well I agree but who in the right mind would do that or even think about it on a mild mild engine. Well aware of the benefits of the aluminums . I was just saying that if the aluminums have bbo sized runners then telling people to run them on a street engine is hypocritical because when the whole debate was in full swing everyone who was pro procomps was saying this will be a great alternative for irons even for an sbo and now well after the debate and the fact that the port velocity thing was kind of debunked I guess telling people that bbo heads are bad is like saying the procomps are bad and I think captjim was pro for the procomps if I remember correctly. I agree if you have low compression mild engine then run what you have but if you are rasing compression and doing all the street strip stuff I cant see the bbo irons being any worse than the procomps. Im saying this because I know for a fact it was said on one of the thread that even for a nice cruiser engine like a 9.5 to 1 the procomps would be of benefit and port velocity would not be compromised I just forgot the thread and who . Whats the fine line between mild and street strip ., One point in compression ? Most think a 10 to 1 iron headed sbo is too much for the street . If 9 to 1 is mild then I guess you could say 9.5 to 1 would be the fine line where one would think of the procomps so why not bbo heads ? I know it sounds dumb but Not everyone wasn't to run high compression .