1968 Toro 455 w/forged steel crank

[2blu442]

Hey guys, this is an ebay auction with the engine located in PA. I don't make a habit of posting ebay auctions, but this is a hard to find item. The link is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...ayphotohosting Auction ends Feb 23

John

*****************SOLD***************************

[dar83501]

You have FIVE 442's?! That many don't even exist in my whole community I don't think ~50,000 people... haha!

[J-(Chicago)]

I believe he has a few more than 5 442s
He has some nice late 70's ones too

[2blu442]

This is dry country so there's a lot of old iron around here. I know of a 1971 442 in the weeds that I just don't have room for so I haven't pursued it. My comment at the bottom says I haven't had the time or money to restore these cars, although I've been collecting parts and doing little things to several cars at one time. I also have project and parts cars that I've decided to sell or part out as I need to focus on the ones listed. John

Also... I posted the link to this engine because if you do an ebay search you may not find it. The title doesn't say it's a 1968 Toro engine or that it has a forged steel crank. It's treasure to the right person!

[2blu442]

The engine sold for over $1100, now I need to delete this thread but I haven't figured out how? Can anyone tell me how to do it? John

[J-(Chicago)]

You'll have to ask Oldsguy to delete the thread. Us worker bees can only delete our own posts that weren't thread starters.

And....
wow. I can't believe it went for that.
I was thinking something more along the lines of say.... 3 cents a pound

[2blu442]

Hi Jeremy
Thanks for the help, I just sent a pm to Dan. The last 455 forged steel crank I saw sell went for $600, the one before that went for $800. Then the Toro oil pan, and the big valve C heads. I think it went for top dollar alright, but those engines are few and far between. I had talked with the guy and he didn't know what he had. I told him to post photos of the rear of the crank to show it was forged steel and suggested he put something in the title to say it was a 1968 Toro engine. He put on the photos and updated the auction saying what the engine came out of, but didn't put it in the title. Maybe I kept someone from getting a really good deal, but the seller had 442 in his name so he sounded like an Olds nut. I felt I should help him out. John

[J-(Chicago)]

Good man.

[Oldsguy]

Just put an edit on the top post. Good info here for others even if the engine was sold.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by 2blu442

........ The last 455 forged steel crank I saw sell went for $600, the one before that went for $800 ........

Looks like people are catching on.

When/if I go to the power level where I need a "better" crank than I have, I will turn to the aftermarket. Why would one go to the trouble/expense of screwing together a 650+ HP engine, using a 40 year old crank with an unknown history?

Originally Posted by 2blu442

........ Then the Toro oil pan ........

Good for a Toro owner who needs a pan. Not the best choice, for high performance use.

Originally Posted by 2blu442

........ and the big valve C heads ........

C is not the only head that came with 2.07 valves.

Originally Posted by 2blu442

........ I think it went for top dollar alright ........

I think its a bit high for an engine/trans combo. But I don't have a Toro with no engine and trans.

Norm

[2blu442]

Norm, since you race I'd like to get your opinion on the factory heads. I have repeatedly heard the C are the best castings to use, and they seem to sell for more money. But if I understand it right the numbers show the same size combustion chamber for several different heads. And yes, I have big valve heads from several different castings. So stock it sounds like C would flow no better than B, E, G, Ga and Ka heads with the large valves.

Then for small block the number 5 seems to have the greater demand.

Are some castings better for porting, and flow better than other year castings when worked? Or is this more of a "urban myth" that some heads (the common ones, not W30 etc.) are more desirable than others? John

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by 2blu442

Norm, since you race ........

I don't race. I run time only, for tuning purposes, then use the numbers for bragging rights.

........ I have repeatedly heard the C are the best castings to use ........

So have I.

........ and they seem to sell for more money ........

Understandable, considering they are the "best".

I don't play the "what it's worth" game, so I won't comment further.

........ the numbers show the same size combustion chamber for several different heads ........

Little, if anything, to do with flow numbers.

........ So stock it sounds like C would flow no better than B, E, G, Ga and Ka heads with the large valves ........

From one of my a previous posts: http://members.tripod.com/~nichibei/headflow.htm

Keep in mind: In any production setting, dimensions (particularly castings) will vary, and so will the numbers.

........ Then for small block ........

I have no experience with "small block" heads.

........ and flow better than other year castings when worked? ........

They all have the same potential/limits. Only difference is, a "J" will take a bit more work than the others.

........ Or is this more of a "urban myth" ........

Yep.

Norm

[four42]

There is no way of telling that is a forged steel crank without removing the pan and checking the numbers. I don't think the rear of the crank can tell you that... and I feel bad for whom ever purchased that motor with the intent of it having a forged steel crank.

Forged cranks only came in engines made during January of 1968 and were not specific to Toros but to tow packages.
Chances are that motor does not have a forged steel crank and large valve C heads are not worth that money, not even for a numbers matching resto, you can cut for larger valves when the heads are redone.
Even it it did have a forged crank I wouldn't recommend using for performance applications due to the cycle time and age of the crank as 88 coupe states. Nodular cranks are just as sturdy for any build up to 500hp. Any higher, go aftermarket...

I have seen many forged cranks pass through peoples hands and not use them, I know of one that is available from a local guy who never used it. Maybe they got wise...

I have a set of C heads on my 455, they are ok for farting around town and for cheep stock performance... however my next build I am going to use Rocket Racing heads to get some real power.

[2blu442]

On big blocks I believe the notch on the back can be used to key out the forged steel or cast iron. I've read that in multiple publications and my personal observations have shown that to be consistant. I've seen them in 1968 Toro's and heard of them in 2 bbl applications for the full sized in 1968, but that's anecdotal information on my part as I've never seen documentation as to what all they were put in.

What something is worth really comes down to what someone will pay for it. From my observations the parts on this motor have been selling for around what the engine sold for. But ebay is a funny place, the price of an item one week doesn't mean that's the market price. It may be that two guys who have a lot of extra money both want that item. If I'm trying to determine market price I like to find several sales and take the ballpark of those values. I also find prices can vary from different parts of the country. Last week I was looking at a 1969 GTO a friend bought. Due to the rust he decided to dismantle it and use the parts for another car he has. In other parts of the country this may have been considered restorable and just average rust, not terminal. But Whatever choices people make it's a fun hobby!

[88 coupe]

Physical difference, between castings and forgings are obvious. Undocumented numbers and/or anecdotes are no substitute for a visual inspection.

Norm