61 Starfire (body / frame hight)

[bjtstarfire]

Question About the way my car sits from side to side across the back and front.

First the suspension was overhauled by me with all new components and they everything is seated correctly and the car had this slight issue prior to the overhaul.

From the front of the car it looks level from side to side even though the measurements are only out about one half of an inch off. The measurements were taken on a flat surface to the top of the front wheel lips. I am not too bugged by this.

From the back the car looks un-level from side to side (not to bad, no one can really key in on it – but I can). The measurements are out about one and one half of an inch off. The measurements were taken on a flat surface to the top of the rear wheel lips and to the frame rail aft of the rear tires. If I measure off the axel they are right on the money and level.

Should I worry about this? Should I take it to a frame shop or will this create more problems?

Does any one have the correct ride height dimensions that they can give me and the reference points?

Ben

[Starfire61]

I had the same problem on my 61 Starfire. Turned out one of the rear coils was rotated about 90 degrees relative to the one on the opposite side of the car. The different seating of the spring was enough to make the back of the car look slightly crooked.

My car is in storage for the winter, so I'm not able to measure anything, but the seat of the springs is the first thing I'd check. I suppose the points on the frame or rear end to which the springs mount could be bent, but given the size of that frame it seems unlikely, as would any sort of twist in the frame itself.

Good Luck!

[bjtstarfire]

That is good news and I am going to see if that is the case here.
I'll keep you posted on my findings in the next few weeks.

[Oldsfan]

Do you have a shop manual? Ride height specs and measuring points are found in it. To check the front on my '62 I had to insert a rod up through the hole in the lower control arm.

Paul

[Oldsguy]

Frame height and body height could be different if a body mount pad is worn, crumbled or missing. check that too.

[bjtstarfire]

Paul,

I see the section in the repair manual - obvious but I missed it the firs time around.

Dan,

Thanks I did look the mounts over and they are fine along with good solid metal that they butt up to.

Thanks once more to all of you. I think the problem has to be the springs - all other areas have been ruled out.

Ben

[bjtstarfire]

NO Luck!

We had 65 degree weather this weekend in PA so my dad and I worked on the rear springs. I wish the problem was corrected but it was not. Here is what we did:

1> I took the spring on the lowest side of the car and rotated it to what I thought might have been a better position. No success same basic condition in ride height.

2> I took the spring on the lowest side of the car and then flipped it. No luck same condition in ride height.

3> I took the springs out on each side of the car marked them and looked them over on the garage floor. To me they look the same in every way possible.

4> I then reinstalled the springs making sure that they were swapped from one side to the other and seated well. The car still has the same ride height problem – close 1 ½” to 2” difference from one side to the other on the same side that always had the lowest measurement. The problem stayed in the same spot and did not travel to the other side.

I looked at the instructions from the springs and only the front springs had a white paint mark for installing them in the up position the rears seemed not to matter, according to the documentation. With that said I still flipped them again and to no avail I still have the same uneven ride height. Help – what do I do now? I am not looking to have it perfect but you can see with the eye that it’s uneven.

Any suggestions and help would be welcomed.

I have been in contact with EATON Detroit SPRING CO. and I seem to get the statement that the problem is not the springs. They may be right but what can I troubleshoot next.

Below is part of an e-mail I sent EATON SPRING after they told me the rear is not level and the springs are fine:

This is what I did to check the rear and what I seen completed at the frame shop.

I measured the rear from two reference points near the shock absorber mounting locations on the axel, to a level garage floor and they were level (out just about 3/16”).

The frame shop did the same thing but they measured to the lift system not the garage floor. They also suspended a level from wire lengths hanging off the rear axel and the results were equal.

If you can advise me on another technique please be as specific as possible so I can ensure that I do it correctly.

When I measure the sprung weight of the car, the measurements differ as you know from my earlier e-mails. This is crazy the only thing I can think of is that I need to add a big shim on the bottom spring mount of the lowest side (which I do not think is safe), try a new set of springs (incase they are different some how), or get one spring that is bigger that the one I have now to address the problem. The original car springs were shot – the car sat real low but it was even, go figure.

Oh! one added thing the frame shop stated. The front is uneven by about a ¼” – you can not tell by the naked eye. They said that as the back low side was corrected that the front will become more even.

PS. Tires have same psi levels and the frame shop ruled out any problems with the car. Measurements from ground up to axel are perfect. Same measurements from ground to frame rails are about 1 ½” to 2” out…

[Oldsfan]

I am confused. Your first post says that this was an issue before the suspension overhaul. This last post says the car sat level before the overhaul. Which is it?

If this was not an issue before the overhaul, how 'bout re-installing the old springs to see what you have? But if this was an issue even with the old springs, then this is a waste of time.

I'm curious to know what the "carrying height" is. This is the measurement given in the shop manual. Measured from the bottom surface of the frame, at the kick up over the axle, right outside of the stop bumper, to the top of the axle housing tube. Should be between 5 13/16" to 6 9/16". Shop manual doesn't give a side to side variance, so I don't know if they mean this 3/4" range is acceptable from side to side on one vehicle, or it if acceptable from vehicle to vehicle.

I do not think you will get an accurate reading by measuring from the rear frame rails to the ground. Here's why:

When I changed the springs on my '62, I left out the front spring spacers that were in the lower control arms. They weren't factory and nobody else I knew had them. When I was done the car had quite a rake that I was unhappy with. I emailed my buddy, who has a '62 that sits nice and asked for some measurements. I got the front bumper to ground, and front wheel opening to ground, both of which were shorter on my car. I got rear wheel opening to ground, which was about comparable with what I had. And I got rear bumper to ground, which was quite a bit taller on my car.

Now, see where I'm goin' with this? What's goin' on up front has quite a bit to do with whats goin' on in the rear because of the fulcrum effect. Lower the front - body and frame pivot on the rear axle - rear-most back end raises. And vice versa, like using a bumper jack - raise one end and the other end lowers. Anything you do at the front pivots on the rear wheels, and the other way around.

And you've mentioned that there is an issue with the front end - not much of an issue, but an issue. Now, what do you think that minor front end issue is doing 17 feet away on the opposite side of the car?

How 'bout you do this - take your frame to ground measurements the way it sits. Now have Dad put some weight on the front corner opposite your rear high side. It got even higher, didn't it? And an even bigger difference side to side. How have Dad switch sides. Your high side came down, didn't it? And you're other side went up? And they might even be equal, or tolerably close? Better yet, use that bumper jack I mentioned. You know how much your front measurement is out and which side. Use the bumper jack to even out the front end. What happened at the rear?

I'm starting to think your issue is really in the front, but is showing most in the rear.

Oh, and I had to put the spacers back in the front control arms. And I am the only guy I know who has 'em. Dunno why...

Paul

[bjtstarfire]

Sorry for the confusion its just more difficult to describe all this in text. The issue before the suspension overhaul was very small and from the eyes perspective the car sat level but very low.

About the "carrying height", as you and the manual state for the rear measurement "rear spring height and for all except S.W.' it should = 5 13/16" to 6 9/16". Well I did this measurment and the readings were in the 7" low side and 8"+ high side range. I can live with the extra height but the unevenness is as you know is what bugs me.

Front measurements with the welding rod were 12 1/2" and 12 3/8".

I will try what you suggested and look at the front more closely and post back here. Thanks for the headsup.

I had no spacers in the front or rear and as for the original springs - bad luck but the rears got tossed and the fronts - well they are collecting dust in the garage.

[bjtstarfire]

I guess I may never really find out what was causing the lean. I tried every thing that was offered by many people. So Eaton Spring stretched my spring for free and the car is now looking good.