gmiles

Here are the specs/facts:
original 215 V8 rebuilt by me. Bored 80 over, stock intake, Edelbrock 500 cfm carb, Crower 50230 cam,(Camshaft, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Adv. Duration 260/266, Lift .446/.451, Buick, 215/300/340). Fuel pump is new, Holley fuel pressure regulator with Marshall gauge, 5/16 fuel line, all new rubber lines, new sock on end of fuel sender. Rubber fuel line jumps from 5/16 to 3/8 after the regulator to attach to the Edelbrock fuel line at the carb (about 20" of hose). Engine pulls 14-18" of vacuum at idle. Carb floats set correctly.

Pertronix ignitor, coil, and wires. I've run 5* advance and 10* advance on the initial timing. 38* total advance. I have a tach wired and an Edelbrock A/F monitor.

Problem: engine starts and idles. Runs rich until the choke falls off, then leans out but still a little rich. Go for a drive and the engine spits, sputters and falls on it's face at about 3000-3200 rpm regardless of gear (automatic trans). Engine won't push past 3200. A/F meter shows extremely lean at that rpm. Runs a little rich everywhere else when cruising until you reach that rpm range, then leans out to almost stalling. I've gone 2 stages rich with an Edelbrock tuning kit, according to their instructions, so it's 2X rich in both the cruise and power mode.

When I first fired up the engine, the carb flooded so I put the pressure regulator on. Fixed the flooding but I never got to drive it without the regulator. The gauge shows erratic pressure. Sometimes at idle it shows 5 psi and sometimes 2 or even 0 psi. Changed gauges and regulators and still had the same problem. Edelbrock recommends 5.5 psi. Sometimes after I shut the car off with the gauge showing whatever, I'll come back 10 minutes later and it will show 6 psi.

I can only come up with 2 things at this point that might cause the engine to fall on it's face and go lean at that rpm range: timing/firing order or a fuel VOLUME issue.

I verified the Buick firing order is the same as the Olds and I've triple checked the plug wires, TDC on #1, and all those other things.

Aside from replacing the mechanical fuel pump or running an electric one, I'm out of ideas. What do you think?


thnx, grady

Tedd Thompson

Sounds like a fuel pump problem to me. Runs when at lower RPM but won't support higher RPM's when it needs more volume.

You can do a quick Farmer Brown type check of the pump by unhooking the fuel line at the carb and placing a Coke bottle over that line, turn the engine over(with the coil wire off) for about 10 or 12 seconds and the bottle should be about 1/2 full if not the pump could be defective..... Tedd

joe_padavano

X2. I'd install a fuel pressure gauge and watch it when the engine falls on it's face.

gmiles

Joe,
I have a fuel pressure gauge already mounted. Fuel pressure had been erratic since I first fired the engine. So much so I bought a second regulator and gauge and tried again. Pressure bounces all over.

I pressurized the tank to check flow from the tank to the rubber line at the pump and once the system was primed, fuel ran from the line-not fast but it ran like I thought a 5/16 fuel line would after siphoning.

I tried using a 1/2 liter bottle as a fuel tank to eliminate issues from the tank to the pump as well. The pump certainly works because the bottle was almost empty after a minute or two warm up followed by 3 solid revs. Each time I revved the engine, the same issue occurred. It sputtered and leaned out at about 3200 RPM.

Was there a difference between 2 BBL and 4 BBL fuel pumps? Anyone know what the rate of flow for the stock pump should be? Carter makes a 40 GPH pump I can try. After eliminating the tank/line portion of the equation, I think the pump needs replacing.

gmiles

Update: no change.

I replaced the fuel pump with a Carter that looks like the original pump. I removed the pressure regulator and associated hardware and ran a 5/16 rubber line from the pump to the Edelbrock banjo fuel line (the one that bends 90 deg. and runs along the carb). I picked up about 200 rpm but it still leans out and pops/sputters above 3000 rpm. Fuel pressure is 4 psi at idle and drops to 3 psi when the engine sputters.

I have two plans right now. 1- get bigger secondary jets and see what happens. and 2- borrow an electric fuel pump from a friend and see what that does.

I don't think the pump is the issue. 3 psi should still run the engine with the 500 cfm carb. The pump is rated at 40 gph. Again, the engine isn't making more than 200 hp, so I'm hoping bigger jets will do.

gmiles

Secondary jets didn't help. I went to .101 and the problem still exists. I guess an electric pump is next. The Edelbrock manual said 4-5 psi minimum so stay tuned for the next episode.

RetroRanger

Are you certain it's not the Petronix? I've had experience w three of their units in two separate applications w problems. One would run at idle but not at speed

gmiles

I considered the ignition might have been the problem. I think, though, that if the ignition was cutting out, the A/F meter would read rich since fuel wouldn't be burned before being expelled via the exhaust.

As it is, the A/F meter leans at about 3200 rpm as the engine sputters and spits. I pulled the plugs and saw they were dark, almost black but not wet. I expected to see light colored plugs since the A/F meter shows a lean condition at 3200 rpm. Plugs didn't smell like oil was burned.

Two things to try next: rev the engine and squirt fuel in and see if it pulls past 3200. Second is to put a video camera over the carb and make sure the secondaries open and fuel discharges like it should. If #1 works out and the engine pulls, then it's a fuel/carb issue.

danktx

Try driving the car without the gas cap installed. If there is a problem with venting that could explain your problems.

gmiles

Tried the fuel squirt scenario but success was hard to measure. Fuel from a squirt bottle just doesn't atomize like it does passing through the carb.

So, picked up a set of points and an electric fuel pump.

In trying to video the carb while the engine spits and sputters I noticed two things: 1- the choke wasn't fully opening and that locks out the secondaries. Fixed that part. I also noticed the secondary counter-weighted butterfly above the secondary throttle plates wasn't opening. It's opened by air flow when the secondary throttle plates open. Don't know that it's an issue, just and observation.

gmiles

Process of elimination: I put points back in the dizzy and saw no change. But it runs pretty good with the points. .....I put an electric fuel pump on and after some tweaking, BAM, car runs good. Drove it today and pulled up to 4K with no problems, other than running rich. BUT, the fuel pressure gauge currently reads ZERO.

When I fired up the car this morning it was 5.5 to 6 PSI. Perfect. Drove around for 1/2 hr and it read 3-4 psi. Now, zero.

The pump is a Facet rated at 40 gph at 7-10 psi. Another problem for another day.

Railguy

I d say your sucking air somewhere do you have clamps everywhere ? I had problem like this took me the hole summer to figure it out.

gmiles

I don't think air is getting in the fuel system. The pump is mounted at the back of the car near the tank. There's only about 6 " of rubber hose between the sender and the pump. Clamps are on both ends of the hose. I considered that the rubber house may collapse on itself (vacuum) but it seemed OK when I checked it, and it's a new hose.. Maybe fuel injection hose would be stiffer.

Railguy

When I got my new fuel lines they came in 2 pieces. They had to be put together with hoses and clamps that's where I had my problem. It sure sounds like your running out fuel. Did you check the bowl floats? Try dis connecting the secondaries then you can narrow it down.
Railguy

gmiles

Here we go again. I replaced the fuel line between the tank and the electric fuel pump with fuel injection hose. I used fuel injection hose clamps. No leaks. the hose is about 5 inches long.

Problem: erratic fuel pressure. I've changed gauges, and adjusted the regulator up and down. I get good fuel pressure first thing but pressure diminishes over run time. 6 psi when the engine first starts (cold). I can drive/run the car for several minutes and fuel pressure drops. If I stop the engine and start it back up, fuel pressure stays low. Pressure drops from 6 to 4 to 3 (approx) and holds there. I hoped fuel injection hose would eliminate possible suction on the feed hose causing it to collapse. No luck.

At one point, when replacing the feed hose with fuel injection hose, I put compressed air back through the sender hoping it would "clear" and debris from the strainer on the sender (inside the tank).

I'm contemplating the removal of the strainer on the sender. Thougts?

joe_padavano

Have you dropped the tank and flushed it? I have to believe that your problems are all related to crud in the tank clogging the filter sock.

gmiles

Joe,
I honestly don't remember cleaning the tank out. It's been about a year and half since I got the car. It came completely apart for the resto-. I can't imagine putting the tank in without cleaning it out, but it's next on my list.

RoseCityOldsmobile

Gmiles, did you ever get it figured out? I'm curious as I too have a 215 in my 63. To answer a much earlier question, yes--there were two different fuel pumps..

Here's a link http://oldsjetfire.com/forums/topic/dome-on-fuel-pump/

This guy knows more than god when it comes to the 215
D&D 810-798-2491 http://aluminumv8.com/Home/Contact

gmiles

interesting on fuel pump design.
I have not solved my problem. Using 2 different gauges, I saw 3 psi difference from one gauge to the other. It seems the problem manifests itself after a period of running the engine. I don't know exactly how long but it doesn't take hours. Maybe 20 minutes? I thought maybe the fuel strainer/sock on the pickup was collapsing on itself and restricting flow, or maybe getting clogged up. I pulled the tank and replaced the silk type sock with a rigid plastic one. And the tank was pretty clean. No change. Same issue with fuel pressure.

More importantly, the car will still not rev past 3000. I set the timing again and noticed a misfire on #1 with my timing light. I checked 3 other plug wires and saw the same thing. I figured the dizzy was bad, the coil was bad, or the Ignitor was bad. It all checked out OK. I checked the plug wires for continuity and even put in new plugs (Champion RJ12YC). No change. I pulled the driver's side valve cover to verify TDC and all is good.

To eliminate the dizzy issue, I bought a Pertronix Billet Flame Thrower dizzy. Installed it and the car will barely run. It sounds like it's running on 3 cylinders. It won't rev at all. It just dies. I put the OEM dizzy in with the Ignitor module and the car fired up, idled, revved to 2800 and it spit/sputtered again. I did this 3 times. Same results.

I emailed Pertronix and they sent me some PDF checklists to troubleshoot with. Following their checklist, the Ignitor module and coil are fine. But the car still wont pull.

I recently watched an Engine Masters episode on the internet. After putting a Holley terminator EFI on a factory GM manifold the EFI wouldn't pull. Some weird vortex thing with the throttle body and the manifold. I don't have a 383 stroker with a high rise dual plane intake or EFI. I have a 215 with a factory 4 bbl manifold with an Edelbrock carb. The EFI did work on an open plenum manfold, though.

Once again, I'm stuck. I'm about ready to sell this car and move on to another waiting project.

grady

gmiles

My coil was bad. I don't know exactly what was wrong, but I put the AC Delco coil back in just to see and things are working fine.

I checked the Pertronix coil and everything seemed good-resistance, voltage to the + and the ground checked fine. But something is wonky inside.

Problem solved

Grady

nonhog

Glad to hear you figured it out. Wouldn't it be nice if something fails it would just die 100%.


What is the next project?

RoseCityOldsmobile

So you are now able to pull her past 3grand?

gmiles

Yup. She runs like she should, now. Time to get the AC charged and go cruising.

Hetman

So glad to hear that!!!! I have a 63 Cutlass too and absolutely love these engines.