1969 442 W32 Converible and 1969 Cutlass Supreme Convertible Factory 4 Speed
May 25th, 2012, 11:22 AM
#41
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Sounds correct to me as that is what I got on my W32. AC and power disc brakes. What is printed on dealer spec sheets are just guidelines and sometimes wrong and not complete. As we found out later my mothers new 1958 Pontiac came from the factory with a Chevrolet engine. A person could do a special order in the sixties and as long as they were prepared to wait and pay the price almost anything goes.
Last edited by crystal59; May 25th, 2012 at 11:28 AM.
May 25th, 2012, 01:04 PM
#42
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May 26th, 2012, 07:10 AM
#43
Guys:
These are great discussions, but like many, it has started with a premise that is incorrect. First, let me say that there is a huge difference between the Factory and the dealers. The dealers are not part of the corporation at all – they are franchised, independent businesses licensed to sell the products (in this case Oldsmobiles) that the factories offer.
Why this is significant is that basically the dealer is required to purchase at wholesale price vehicles from Oldsmobile and then sell them to their customers. The Factory, tries to accommodate the sale of vehicles by offering certain options and colors that THEY determine are appropriate to sell. And warranty has a big impact here, because of the Factory's obligation to service and/or replace defective or mis-manufactured vehicles (window seal leaks, as an example).
Thus, the dealer is obligated to sell what the factory offers, or risk losing their franchise. Of course the factory wants feedback on the products – in order to sell what the buying public wants, BUT this has to fit within what it is feasible to manufacture, and when I say manufacture, that also means not only what it is feasible to do, but what is practical within the manufacturing process. For example, no Vista Cruiser convertibles, no Cutlasses with a 98 interior, etc.
In that, we also need to consider that each and every change in the process has to be accounted for in the supply chain, cost justified, or is within the ability to do it on an assembly line, and within the huge paper and computer ordering system that has/had to replicate how something gets built. That is why you have a base car and then options.
If something was not listed as an option, it is likely because it could not be accommodated within the system or would require special parts and pieces not available. Of course, there were oversights or large demand that during the model year would be rectified, but don't think that it was just a matter of putting out a "memo" and now everything is fine. Each time an option or change was contemplated, all the issues supply, cost, assembly and ordering had to be considered.
Now, going back to the dealer and the Factory – the dealer has a different mission than the factory – the dealer wants to acquire and retain customers - and the factory wants to make/sell cars. Like Henry Ford, the Factory would like nothing better than to make one car with no options and in black only. Obviously, this doesn't work in pre WWII society, and options help sell the car. So, the Factory creates options, works out what vehicles they will be on, then produces these vehicles and TELLS the dealer what they can order. When I am making 500,000 cars, glitches to that process – unless it helps me sell an substantial number of MORE cars, is likely to be rejected. From the Factory's point of view, anything that is going to mess up the system, and that is not going to be profitable, is generally off the table.
Contrary to our own egos, the Factories saw the performance car as a niche vehicle and used these sales to bolster their image. (The best year of 442 production was less than 5% of total Oldsmobile sales and a bit over 13% of Cutlass sales – and special high performance 442s like the H/O and W-30 comprised only .3% and 1% respectively). Seeing that, you can see why even these cars would be limited by the options they could have.
Many times, the Factory could not see how to do something without non-production pieces and so they rejected the possibility. (I am fairly sure that AC in any ram air car in 1968-69 would require a spacer to raise the air cleaner so that the air cleaner and hoses would clear the AC compressor bracket on the passenger side). This type of problem – requiring a special part with very low manufacturing numbers, would many times cause an option to be rejected. Floor shifted cars had a different floor pan – and to my knowledge, were only built into 2-door cars. This would preclude the factory offering 4-speed on four door cars in the period 68-72. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, I’m saying that this would be a “tell” as to whether it was a factory or dealer installed option.
Now the dealer, on the other hand, wanted to capture and retain every potential customer. If a prospect comes in waving money and wanting to buy a car, the dealer is going to try to sell them one. Thus, the competition for customers is among the dealers, not the factory. This was especially true in the 60s and early 70s with GM's A-body car - where all 4 divisions sold huge numbers of vehicles.
So it was the dealer that wanted to accommodate the buyer’s whimsy – not the Factory. How did the dealer do this? By doing dealer installed options. Heck, in some years, a tissue dispenser was a dealer installed option, or a trailer hitch. Why? Because it was easier for the dealer to do it than the Factory.
So when a customer arrived and said "I want a 4-speed Cutlass Supreme or a W-32 with AC, many dealers would say "yes". That did not mean the Factory would do it. Many times the dealer BSd the customer by taking the order, knowing full well that Factory would not do it, and figuring that they would either do it themselves, or they would blame the factory and try to talk the customer into either accepting the car as-is or doing the install at the dealer (at grossly inflated prices). The factory discouraged some of these deals and looked the other way on others, because to the Factory, that car represented was a warranty problem, so many dealers would have to warranty the option themselves.
This all being said, we need to consider that many cars not specifically built by the factory were delivered by the dealer (after some service department installs) and made to look like they were delivered by the factory. Why? Because the dealer wanted a satisfied customer. Other dealers just wanted the sale and would say/do anything to get it. Other dealers, like Nikey's 427 Camaros, Royal's 421 GTOs, and Mr. Norm's Hemi Darts were the result of putting engines in cars not available from the Factory as a "dealer installed option". Why? As a separate business and to satisfy a niche market. In all case, these were brand new cars, but they were never assembled by the Factory.
What this long story means is that just because an option was delivered by the dealer, does not mean it was a factory installed option. So the argument “No one would turn down such a sale” may be true, but that concept was AT THE DEALER LEVEL not at the factory level. Recognizing this will help recognize that options did end up on cars – but not necessarily when they left the factory – only when they were delivered to the customers.
These are great discussions, but like many, it has started with a premise that is incorrect. First, let me say that there is a huge difference between the Factory and the dealers. The dealers are not part of the corporation at all – they are franchised, independent businesses licensed to sell the products (in this case Oldsmobiles) that the factories offer.
Why this is significant is that basically the dealer is required to purchase at wholesale price vehicles from Oldsmobile and then sell them to their customers. The Factory, tries to accommodate the sale of vehicles by offering certain options and colors that THEY determine are appropriate to sell. And warranty has a big impact here, because of the Factory's obligation to service and/or replace defective or mis-manufactured vehicles (window seal leaks, as an example).
Thus, the dealer is obligated to sell what the factory offers, or risk losing their franchise. Of course the factory wants feedback on the products – in order to sell what the buying public wants, BUT this has to fit within what it is feasible to manufacture, and when I say manufacture, that also means not only what it is feasible to do, but what is practical within the manufacturing process. For example, no Vista Cruiser convertibles, no Cutlasses with a 98 interior, etc.
In that, we also need to consider that each and every change in the process has to be accounted for in the supply chain, cost justified, or is within the ability to do it on an assembly line, and within the huge paper and computer ordering system that has/had to replicate how something gets built. That is why you have a base car and then options.
If something was not listed as an option, it is likely because it could not be accommodated within the system or would require special parts and pieces not available. Of course, there were oversights or large demand that during the model year would be rectified, but don't think that it was just a matter of putting out a "memo" and now everything is fine. Each time an option or change was contemplated, all the issues supply, cost, assembly and ordering had to be considered.
Now, going back to the dealer and the Factory – the dealer has a different mission than the factory – the dealer wants to acquire and retain customers - and the factory wants to make/sell cars. Like Henry Ford, the Factory would like nothing better than to make one car with no options and in black only. Obviously, this doesn't work in pre WWII society, and options help sell the car. So, the Factory creates options, works out what vehicles they will be on, then produces these vehicles and TELLS the dealer what they can order. When I am making 500,000 cars, glitches to that process – unless it helps me sell an substantial number of MORE cars, is likely to be rejected. From the Factory's point of view, anything that is going to mess up the system, and that is not going to be profitable, is generally off the table.
Contrary to our own egos, the Factories saw the performance car as a niche vehicle and used these sales to bolster their image. (The best year of 442 production was less than 5% of total Oldsmobile sales and a bit over 13% of Cutlass sales – and special high performance 442s like the H/O and W-30 comprised only .3% and 1% respectively). Seeing that, you can see why even these cars would be limited by the options they could have.
Many times, the Factory could not see how to do something without non-production pieces and so they rejected the possibility. (I am fairly sure that AC in any ram air car in 1968-69 would require a spacer to raise the air cleaner so that the air cleaner and hoses would clear the AC compressor bracket on the passenger side). This type of problem – requiring a special part with very low manufacturing numbers, would many times cause an option to be rejected. Floor shifted cars had a different floor pan – and to my knowledge, were only built into 2-door cars. This would preclude the factory offering 4-speed on four door cars in the period 68-72. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, I’m saying that this would be a “tell” as to whether it was a factory or dealer installed option.
Now the dealer, on the other hand, wanted to capture and retain every potential customer. If a prospect comes in waving money and wanting to buy a car, the dealer is going to try to sell them one. Thus, the competition for customers is among the dealers, not the factory. This was especially true in the 60s and early 70s with GM's A-body car - where all 4 divisions sold huge numbers of vehicles.
So it was the dealer that wanted to accommodate the buyer’s whimsy – not the Factory. How did the dealer do this? By doing dealer installed options. Heck, in some years, a tissue dispenser was a dealer installed option, or a trailer hitch. Why? Because it was easier for the dealer to do it than the Factory.
So when a customer arrived and said "I want a 4-speed Cutlass Supreme or a W-32 with AC, many dealers would say "yes". That did not mean the Factory would do it. Many times the dealer BSd the customer by taking the order, knowing full well that Factory would not do it, and figuring that they would either do it themselves, or they would blame the factory and try to talk the customer into either accepting the car as-is or doing the install at the dealer (at grossly inflated prices). The factory discouraged some of these deals and looked the other way on others, because to the Factory, that car represented was a warranty problem, so many dealers would have to warranty the option themselves.
This all being said, we need to consider that many cars not specifically built by the factory were delivered by the dealer (after some service department installs) and made to look like they were delivered by the factory. Why? Because the dealer wanted a satisfied customer. Other dealers just wanted the sale and would say/do anything to get it. Other dealers, like Nikey's 427 Camaros, Royal's 421 GTOs, and Mr. Norm's Hemi Darts were the result of putting engines in cars not available from the Factory as a "dealer installed option". Why? As a separate business and to satisfy a niche market. In all case, these were brand new cars, but they were never assembled by the Factory.
What this long story means is that just because an option was delivered by the dealer, does not mean it was a factory installed option. So the argument “No one would turn down such a sale” may be true, but that concept was AT THE DEALER LEVEL not at the factory level. Recognizing this will help recognize that options did end up on cars – but not necessarily when they left the factory – only when they were delivered to the customers.
Last edited by jrzybob442; May 26th, 2012 at 07:13 AM.
May 26th, 2012, 08:34 AM
#45
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beautiful car - and not disputing your claims at all, but I would like to see pic of under hood also - cause to add Factory A/C to a Non AC car you'd have to change out or severely modify the firewall to put factory A/C on which no dealer would take that on.... guaranteed.
Aftermarket A/C is a different story...
Aftermarket A/C is a different story...
May 26th, 2012, 10:00 AM
#46
Old(s) Fart
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Amen! Bob has nailed this. Dealer-installed "options" don't really carry much value in my book, despite attempts to pump up the value of such undocumented options on ebay and by the big auction houses. Frankly, why is a 454 installed in a Nova by Nickey Chevrolet any more valuable than one I installed in my own garage? Neither one is factory-built.
May 26th, 2012, 10:54 AM
#47
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[QUOTE=joe_padavano;410318]Amen! Bob has nailed this. Dealer-installed "options" don't really carry much value in my book, despite attempts to pump up the value of such undocumented options on ebay and by the big auction houses. Frankly, why is a 454 installed in a Nova by Nickey Chevrolet any more valuable than one I installed in my own garage? Neither one is factory-built.[/QUO
Thank You for clearing that up. As I said, I was not interested in resale value or the reason the AC was installed. I had ordered AC and I wanted AC. I needed to be able to drive the car wearing a suit on a hot day without appearing to have worn the suit for days. Please remember I did not place the original order and the person who did could not take delivery for financial reasons. The W32 was coming down the line when I got involved. It does not make sense that I would need to up the value on a twenty five number of production vehicle which was destined from day one to be a classic much like the 1963 split window Corvette, the 1956 Continental Mark II, or the 1956-1957 Thunderbird. As we know, appearance plus rarity equals classic in most cases. Also, being a one year run helps a lot.
Thank You for clearing that up. As I said, I was not interested in resale value or the reason the AC was installed. I had ordered AC and I wanted AC. I needed to be able to drive the car wearing a suit on a hot day without appearing to have worn the suit for days. Please remember I did not place the original order and the person who did could not take delivery for financial reasons. The W32 was coming down the line when I got involved. It does not make sense that I would need to up the value on a twenty five number of production vehicle which was destined from day one to be a classic much like the 1963 split window Corvette, the 1956 Continental Mark II, or the 1956-1957 Thunderbird. As we know, appearance plus rarity equals classic in most cases. Also, being a one year run helps a lot.
Last edited by crystal59; May 26th, 2012 at 11:37 AM.
May 26th, 2012, 11:28 AM
#48
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That is the only sad part of the story. The W32 paid it's dues and was driven by my wife for many years without much attention. She told me there was a tick sound in the engine. I started the W32 up and there was a tick. I phoned my mechanic of the day and asked if I should have it towed or drive it to his shop. He suggested I drive it. The engine blew. The car was towed to the mechanic to fix and a few days later my wife said the car is ready and finally she did not have to drive such a powerful car. I asked what do you mean by that. She said our mechanic said the car would run better for her with a 350 in it. I was furious and got on the phone demanding my engine. He said it has been sold. All this within 24 hours and the 350 was in the car. He said he did not know the name of the person who paid cash for the engine and no way of finding the engine. I still think he has it and some day. Anyway I was so annoyed because the 350 did not work properly with the linkage etc. I dropped a 455 into the car and it works just fine. The options the car had was rim horn, trunk release, eight track, and I added air conditioning and am/fm radio.
May 26th, 2012, 11:32 AM
#49
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What a sin. That mechanic needs a good kick in the teeth. He had no right to sell something that didn't belong to him. Also, the fact that he could sell it so fast tells me the engine could have easily been rebuilt. More than likely it was a bad lifter or something minor like that.
May 26th, 2012, 11:34 AM
#50
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I later found out that the radiator was completely clogged and that did it. When the engine went bang and White smoke came out the rear, I sank. I still think my original engine is around and I have not stopped looking or planning. Until then the 455 works fine but some day.
May 26th, 2012, 11:40 AM
#51
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I would have definely had it repaired and the mechanic would know that. Otherwise why talk to my wife when I had the W32 towed to him and I was the registered owner.
Last edited by crystal59; May 26th, 2012 at 11:45 AM.
May 26th, 2012, 12:08 PM
#53
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You bet and more. Anyway, this started out introducing my two Olds. I am glad I joined the forum and will post more photographs that were requested under the hood showing AC hoses etc.
Last edited by crystal59; May 26th, 2012 at 12:12 PM.
May 26th, 2012, 06:50 PM
#54
CH3NO2 LEARN IT BURN IT
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Well put jrzybob442. We often get derailed with our thought processes when dealing with the “anything goes 60-70s”…and was it factory or wasn’t it…While some strange stuff did escape from various factories it was often the dealership shenanigans that produced oddities that weren’t supposed to exist, especially if you had inside conncections with either.
Rallye 350s that had their bumpers changed to chrome, 442s with "factory" trailer hitches, Toronados painted a Mopar color, W32s with A/C etc…
Factory vs Dealership...we often lose sight of that. The dealership would and did do almost anything to move product. Also adding to the confusion is bad information gathered throughout the years...fat fingered garbage-in-garbage-out etc...I just reread my last post on this thread and saw two typos...or are they. I have literature stating A/C was available and A/C was not available on a W32. The one piece of lit is a dealer promo brochure and its states it’s possible. I'm sure it was… just dig deep and we’ll put a factory A/C set-up in your car or 488s in the rear or headers or a wing on a Supreme.
Without the luxury of factory production records and services such as Marti reports, Glen Glovier, or PHS we are on our own. So if we all keep your prospective in mind a lot of this makes perfict sense. Thanks for reeling it back in and keeping it real.
Again we have always said here and on other forums if you have an odd ball and it has the paperwork to back it up, good for you. Put a few more dollars on its insurance policy. If you don’t have said paperwork but believe it to be legit because that’s the way you remember your grandfather ordering it then great enjoy it and stop worrying about the numbers.
Thanks crystal59 for sharing your gorgeous car and welcome aboard. Looking forward to seeing more pictures.
Rallye 350s that had their bumpers changed to chrome, 442s with "factory" trailer hitches, Toronados painted a Mopar color, W32s with A/C etc…
Factory vs Dealership...we often lose sight of that. The dealership would and did do almost anything to move product. Also adding to the confusion is bad information gathered throughout the years...fat fingered garbage-in-garbage-out etc...I just reread my last post on this thread and saw two typos...or are they. I have literature stating A/C was available and A/C was not available on a W32. The one piece of lit is a dealer promo brochure and its states it’s possible. I'm sure it was… just dig deep and we’ll put a factory A/C set-up in your car or 488s in the rear or headers or a wing on a Supreme.
Without the luxury of factory production records and services such as Marti reports, Glen Glovier, or PHS we are on our own. So if we all keep your prospective in mind a lot of this makes perfict sense. Thanks for reeling it back in and keeping it real.
Again we have always said here and on other forums if you have an odd ball and it has the paperwork to back it up, good for you. Put a few more dollars on its insurance policy. If you don’t have said paperwork but believe it to be legit because that’s the way you remember your grandfather ordering it then great enjoy it and stop worrying about the numbers.
Thanks crystal59 for sharing your gorgeous car and welcome aboard. Looking forward to seeing more pictures.
Last edited by droldsmorland; May 26th, 2012 at 06:54 PM.
May 26th, 2012, 08:25 PM
#55
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beautiful car - and not disputing your claims at all, but I would like to see pic of under hood also - cause to add Factory A/C to a Non AC car you'd have to change out or severely modify the firewall to put factory A/C on which no dealer would take that on.... guaranteed.
Aftermarket A/C is a different story...
Aftermarket A/C is a different story...
I will post photographs. This is factory AC and not an aftermarket. The firewall looks the same to me. I did lose the air vents with the pull out handles on the drivers and passenger side but that did not matter as long as I had cold AC coming through the factory vents and I had a factory control panel. It was not a big deal to install the factory AC. You know there was an occasion when Elvis was trying to cut a hit record. Elvis had tried a few attempts and the engineer said 'Once more Elvis and this time don't make it so darn complicated. And Elvis followed that advice and had a hit record. Installing factory AC on the W32, whether authorised by the factory or not, was not that complicated.
Last edited by crystal59; May 26th, 2012 at 08:38 PM.
May 26th, 2012, 09:31 PM
#56
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Also, when you compare it to the W-32, it's not really rarer because with one it's an engine package while with the other it's narrowing it down further by tranny - an apples to orange comparison.
May 26th, 2012, 09:39 PM
#57
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The person I bought it from told me that only eighteen Cutlass Supreme convertibles were factory 4 speed. I contacted GM and to my surprise, I was referred to a research department which for a price of about eighteen dollars forwarded to me a ten plus page printout about my car giving me specifications and number built. Pretty cool. The consol for the 4 speed has an Oldsmobile insignia on it and some Oldsmobile guys say rare consol. I will post photographs. The other difference is the body. When side
by side, the W32 looks more edgy and the hood is a lot heavier. This is not a spring problem with either hood. The W32 has a lot more finish, interior and exterior, so it is not just an engine package versus a transmission package.
by side, the W32 looks more edgy and the hood is a lot heavier. This is not a spring problem with either hood. The W32 has a lot more finish, interior and exterior, so it is not just an engine package versus a transmission package.
Last edited by crystal59; May 26th, 2012 at 09:48 PM.
May 26th, 2012, 10:30 PM
#59
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Also….
You are missing the essence of what I am saying. When it comes to production figures, you start with the model and go down from there. How many cars in a particular bodystyle? How many of those with a particular motor? How many of those with a particular transmission? Etc.
So, you see, the number you are claiming for the CS is taking it an extra step further, which is why I said it was an apples to orange comparison.
So, you see, the number you are claiming for the CS is taking it an extra step further, which is why I said it was an apples to orange comparison.
May 26th, 2012, 10:35 PM
#60
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I was skeptical as well until I received the printout. Perhaps someone else has documentation for the number of 1969 Cutlass Supreme convertibles with factory 4 speed. I am on holidays and upon my return I will post the document. It came with a letter from GM.
Last edited by crystal59; May 26th, 2012 at 10:43 PM.
May 26th, 2012, 10:38 PM
#62
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Also….
You are missing the essence of what I am saying. When it comes to production figures, you start with the model and go down from there. How many cars in a particular bodystyle? How many of those with a particular motor? How many of those with a particular transmission? Etc.
So, you see, the number you are claiming for the CS is taking it an extra step further, which is why I said it was an apples to orange comparison.
You are missing the essence of what I am saying. When it comes to production figures, you start with the model and go down from there. How many cars in a particular bodystyle? How many of those with a particular motor? How many of those with a particular transmission? Etc.
So, you see, the number you are claiming for the CS is taking it an extra step further, which is why I said it was an apples to orange comparison.
May 29th, 2012, 07:16 PM
#66
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OK. Will do. More photographs coming at you. The naysayers do not bother me. I have owned the W32 for 43 years and the Cutlass 4 speed for 26 years. I know the difference between someone who is pleased to see the cars and sour grapes. Most persons are happy for me and pleased that I kept them from the scrap heap. I once belonged to a local Oldsmobile club and I showed up in the Cutlass 4 speed. One member came over and said he had never seen a 1969 Cutlass Supreme 4 speed convertible.
That was nice. Another member came up and said the right side of my rear bumper was one half inch too low. I said take a good look, you are not likely to see another 1969 Cutlass Supreme 4 speed convertible. No time for the second person.
That was nice. Another member came up and said the right side of my rear bumper was one half inch too low. I said take a good look, you are not likely to see another 1969 Cutlass Supreme 4 speed convertible. No time for the second person.
Last edited by crystal59; May 29th, 2012 at 07:41 PM.
May 30th, 2012, 05:02 AM
#67
72 Olds CS
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as long as you enjoy your cars thats all that matters
May 30th, 2012, 06:32 AM
#68
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But pics of the car are always nice too.
May 30th, 2012, 07:03 AM
#69
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18?
Just a stupid question are you saying there were only 18 1969 cutlass supreme 4 speeds? is this the same as the Cutlass S? I have a 1969 4 speed convertible, originally came with a 350 2bbl, 4 speed and a 3.08 posi rear? or did I miss something in the thread?
May 30th, 2012, 07:11 AM
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There was only one Cutlass convertible, and it was the Cutlass Supreme, no?
Well, after looking online, I see it was a Cutlass S for 1969.
I guess we don't know what the 1 of 18 is - could it be by engine? Is is an M21? Regardless, I'm skeptical - if true, maybe Canadian cars?
Well, after looking online, I see it was a Cutlass S for 1969.
I guess we don't know what the 1 of 18 is - could it be by engine? Is is an M21? Regardless, I'm skeptical - if true, maybe Canadian cars?
May 30th, 2012, 07:22 AM
#71
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The 442 version (VIN starting with 34467) (Cutlass S Convertible) had 1,161 with 4-speed, 87 with 3-speed and 3,047 with automatics. The 442 W30 Convertible (VIN also starting with 34467) had 0 with 3-speed, 91 with 4-speed and 30 came with automatics. I don't have the breakdown of the plain or standard versions of the Cutlass Supreme or the Cutlass S. Maybe Diego has the #'s. There was no Cutlass Supreme Convertible in 1969.
Last edited by GAOldsman; May 30th, 2012 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Corrected the wrong info
May 30th, 2012, 07:25 AM
#72
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How can I have the numbers confused when I'm asking for documentation for the "1 of 18?"
Likewise, I just pointed out that the only Cutlass convertible was a Cutlass S and not a Supreme. In 1970 the Cutlass convertible moved up to become a Supreme. Perhaps I should be clearer and say that the only A-body ragtops in 1969 were the Cutlass S and 4-4-2.
Likewise, I just pointed out that the only Cutlass convertible was a Cutlass S and not a Supreme. In 1970 the Cutlass convertible moved up to become a Supreme. Perhaps I should be clearer and say that the only A-body ragtops in 1969 were the Cutlass S and 4-4-2.
May 30th, 2012, 07:38 AM
#74
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There was only one Cutlass convertible, and it was the Cutlass Supreme, no?
Well, after looking online, I see it was a Cutlass S for 1969.
I guess we don't know what the 1 of 18 is - could it be by engine? Is is an M21? Regardless, I'm skeptical - if true, maybe Canadian cars?
Well, after looking online, I see it was a Cutlass S for 1969.
I guess we don't know what the 1 of 18 is - could it be by engine? Is is an M21? Regardless, I'm skeptical - if true, maybe Canadian cars?
I believe mine is the wide ratio m-20, there are a lot of "funny" things on this car, like the additional braces etc , that may have been put on after? the tranny is stamped with part of the vin, I have the original motor etc as well as having just built a nice street 455 for her, she came with 4 wheel drums power, and power steering, I really do not think it is that rare of a car? When I bought her many many years ago ( 25+) I was looking for a replacement for my 69 gto 4 speed convertible, that is one car I wish I still had but was lost in an accident ( not my fault). I do see a lot of cars listed as 1 of 2 1 of 1 but some of these are say a 6 cylinder in a ss car or some funky colour or some other weird configuration making it obscure yes, but in my opinion not necessarily desirable.
May 30th, 2012, 07:42 AM
#75
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,620
The info you posted was for the 4-4-2.
When it comes to proclamations of cars for sale, such as "1 of 2," it can get complicated. Normally, the seller is full of it (and, it should be noted, I'm not calling out the OP on this), and these things can't be determined. However, when it comes to Fords, it can. However, when you combine all the options, isn't every car a 1 of 1? Quite silly. Using the "rare but not desirable" cliche doesn't address the issue properly.
When it comes to proclamations of cars for sale, such as "1 of 2," it can get complicated. Normally, the seller is full of it (and, it should be noted, I'm not calling out the OP on this), and these things can't be determined. However, when it comes to Fords, it can. However, when you combine all the options, isn't every car a 1 of 1? Quite silly. Using the "rare but not desirable" cliche doesn't address the issue properly.
May 30th, 2012, 07:59 AM
#76
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South River, New Jersey
Posts: 3,515
I have a 1 of 1161!! J/K is there anyway to see how many of those had 350 2bbl? or how many came with positraction?
BTW I Love the W-32 pictured absolutely drop dead gorgeous!! my car was originally Glade green with a gold interior and I believe a gold top ( based on the interior colour of the top.
years ago I also bought a 1967 grand prix convertible and she had a 4 speed too... she was considered ratty for the time I still can not believe we drove the bejesus out of that car screwing around.. ran it through the woods and eventually just scrapped it.... too soon old too late smart....
J/K is there anyway to see how many of those had 350 2bbl? or how many came with positraction? BTW I Love the W-32 pictured absolutely drop dead gorgeous!! my car was originally Glade green with a gold interior and I believe a gold top ( based on the interior colour of the top.
years ago I also bought a 1967 grand prix convertible and she had a 4 speed too... she was considered ratty for the time I still can not believe we drove the bejesus out of that car screwing around.. ran it through the woods and eventually just scrapped it.... too soon old too late smart....
May 30th, 2012, 08:02 AM
#77
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,620
I have production figures for GP ragtops with the 4-speed. They are quite rare.
But when it comes to rarity, I think engine and tranny is legit, and perhaps some random options like colors, but sometimes it gets to be ridiculous. On the other hand, I would think a 350-2 with Posi is an interesting combo - more notable than a 4-4-2 with the same option.
But when it comes to rarity, I think engine and tranny is legit, and perhaps some random options like colors, but sometimes it gets to be ridiculous. On the other hand, I would think a 350-2 with Posi is an interesting combo - more notable than a 4-4-2 with the same option.
May 30th, 2012, 08:08 AM
#78
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 17,614
Mine is 1/4" off too
I've considered slitting my wrist but I found out after 5 years of theropy, I can live with it.
May 30th, 2012, 11:26 AM
#79
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 90
May 30th, 2012, 11:36 AM
#80
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 90
Other than the documentation that I received from GM out of curiosity more than anything as I do not sell the cars I have purchased over the years, does anyone have any documentation on the production number of a 1969 Cutlass S or Cutlass Supreme factory 4 speed convertible? Must be set out somewhere.
