pharside

Hey guys,
I signed up here about 5 years ago, then just kinda forgot about it, so this is my first post. I've got a '65 cutlass languishing in my back yard since getting married 10 years ago and I'm gonna put her back on the road this year. It's got the original 315hp 330 and a modded th350. (shift kit and a converter) I always thought it needed a stick, and now since I have to replace pretty much the whole floor pan, I'm gonna do it. I don't have a ton to spend, but I can't let it sit any longer. So, I've searching e-bay and junk yards for parts just to get her moving again. I'm thinking about the taller spindle and disc brakes for the front too. I've got a dual bolt pattern bell housing from a '65 GTO I scored from e-bay, now I need a trans to bolt behind it. I want an orig M-20, but they're too pricey for me now. So, I'm looking for pretty much any 4-5-6 speed I can find that will work. Any suggestions? Floor pan mods and shifter placement really aren't an issue at this point. I just want it drive-able.
My question is, what would be the cheapest, most plentiful, and all around best option here? I don't really plan on drag racing it, so I don't need a Viper-spec T56, just something that can handle a mild v8. I don't like that it revs so high at highway speeds, so I want an extra gear or two.. I swear, at 80, it sounds like it's running 5 grand.... I had it up to 115 once and it was really howlin.. But that was like 20 years ago.. Young and dumb..
Thanks.

joe_padavano

Welcome. Your first problem is that Olds did not drill the crank for a pilot bearing on engines bolted to automatics from the factory. Machining this hole correctly requires removing the crank from the engine. No big deal if you are rebuilding it. There is also an aftermarket conversion bushing that fits in the existing recess in the crank, but this requires trimming the tip of the transmission input shaft by about 1/2".

The only manual trans that might be lower cost than a Muncie would be a T10. Cast iron Saginaw transmissions have marginal strength. Anything else is both more expensive and requires custom work to fit. The Muncie and T10 are both the same length and output shaft size as your TH350 (and the original Jetaway), so there's no issue with fittment.

pharside

Yeah, I know about the crank issue. I'm planning on on pulling the engine for a minor refresh.. Just gaskets and paint. It runs great and doesn't burn oil, so no need to get too deep into it.

What about a T5 out of a Camaro? Would that mate up to the bell housing? ...Like I said, I have to replace most of the floor pan, so fitment issues is not of much concern. I'm not too concerned about originality right now, I just want it running.. I'll worry about originality when I do a full resto on it when I have more money to work with... Hell, I may just fab patch panels out of road signs for now.. lol When I say any trans is fine, I mean it. If it will physically bolt to the bell housing, I'll make it work. Fab trans crossmember, mounts, etc..
This car used to be my car show/cruise-in, daily driver since the year after I graduated high school. I bought it in '96 and drove it regularly till about 2005. It's been sitting ever since, and rusting. The window seals are shot, passenger side floor is shot, trans tunnel is shot, trunk floor is shot.. It is just killing me looking out my kitchen window and seeing my former pride and joy, the car I took my wife for our first date in, just rusting away in the back yard. One way or another, I'm driving it this summer.

And it's gonna have a man peddle, dammit.

joe_padavano

The T-5 has a few issues, the most important one being the lack of strength. A well-built World Class T5 will probably live behind a stock 330, but that depends on gearing and how you drive it. Frankly it doesn't make a lot of sense to swap to a manual if you have to drive with an eggshell under the pedals.

The second issue is fitment. There are two case styles, GM and Ford. The GM cases will bolt to the BOP bellhousing. Be aware that by the early 1990s, GM went to the Ford-pattern case, however. An interesting wrinkle is that the stock 1965-69 BOP bellhousings actually have both the GM and Ford trans bolt patterns, due to the use of the Dearborn three speed trans. You can bolt a Ford-pattern T-5 to one of these, but the input shaft might be too long and the bearing retainer might not fit the hole in the bellhousing. There are adapter/spacer plates available.

The third issue is shifter location. There are three different shifter locations available with the T-5, but changing requires swapping the tailhousing. The Mustang/Camaro versions are furthest back. The S-10 version is furthest forward. The rare Astro van version is in the middle.

Finally, there's the issue of crossmember location and driveshaft length. The T-5 uses a different crossmember location than do other GM manual transmissions, so you'll need to relocate the crossmember. The longer trans case will require a custom driveshaft. And of course, if you get a T-5 with an electric speedo, there's that whole problem.

pharside

Thanks for the input Joe, that's very informative. This gives me a few things to consider/figure out. Are there any other trannies that's may be a possibility? Are there any other 5 spds that would fit? Maybe from a truck? (as long as 5th is overdrive) As long as it was originally behind a v8, it should take the torque... Just out of curiosity, do you know of a list of specific trannies that will physically bolt to that bell housing? (That /is/ the one I have.. I've seen other BOP bell housings that only have the single bolt pattern..)
Thanks again man.

joe_padavano

Most new five speeds have integral bellhousings. The truck transmissions have truck gearing that is useless for car use. There's a reason why the aftermarket five speed conversions are priced the way they are - there is no low-cost junkyard alternative. One I'm considering is the TR3650 as used in the 2000-2004 Mustangs. This trans also has an integral bellhousing. There is an aftermarket front plate that replaces the bellhousing and provides either the traditional Ford or GM bolt pattern, but that plate alone is $600.

Octania

M20's are too pricey?
What are we talking here?
I thought a Muncie in used condition sells for around 400-500. You need a lot more than just that, but that's true for any trans.

joe_padavano

Been a while since you bought one, I take it?

The muscle car restorers have caused that to pretty much double. The Super T-10s can be had for $400 or so. Get one with the 2.88 first gear if possible.

pharside

Thanks again Joe, I appreciate the info. He's right Octania. I've been looking for a while. That's why I'd be willing to settle for pretty much anything at this point. It's hard to find a Muncie M20 in "used and abused" condition for less than twice that... Unless you know of a source, in which case, you have my attention.. The M21's are even more scarce. Luckily, my car originally came with the M20 variety.

wls559

Too bad you are no out in my area, I talked to a guy that was trying to sell an M20 for $600.00 that was rebuilt about 2 years ago. He just dropped a Tremmic 5spd in his 70.
If you are really looking for one and willing to get it shipped, He lives about 15 minutes from me, I could swing by and see if he still has it.

Bill S.

pharside

Well.. unfortunately I can't cough that up right now. But, I know what to look for and have an idea how much I'll have to stick back for it.. I've got a family, and money's tight. If I can come up with it any time soon, I'll let ya know Bill. Thanks.
~Shawn