68 H/O

[Jamesbo]

Here's a road test of a 68 H/O and interview with the Doc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FINO_...eature=related

[Oldsguy]

Things I noticed;

Cigarettes in the interviewer's pocket.

Air cleaner top up-side down.

White wall tires.

Applied brakes with left foot.

By today's standards the car looks sluggish and slow, but remember, that was 1968!

They mentioned "executive cruiser" or "executive muscle" or similar phrases often, who were the marketing to?

And finally, the car is BEAUTIFUL.

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

Things I noticed;

Cigarettes in the interviewer's pocket.

Air cleaner top up-side down.

White wall tires.

Applied brakes with left foot.

By today's standards the car looks sluggish and slow, but remember, that was 1968!

They mentioned "executive cruiser" or "executive muscle" or similar phrases often, who were the marketing to?

And finally, the car is BEAUTIFUL.

I never knew anyone in who had a 68 H/O, but a friend of mine's father had a 69 H/O. He worked for Olds in Atlanta.

I would guess their target market was well off people who wanted comfort and muscle and could pay the bucks.

Yeah pitch the whitewalls pronto!

Remeber, a/c was an option, FM was an option [stereo wasn't avaliable until 69 I think] 8 tracks were a luxury,

There were alot of very uncomfortable cars in those days, especially fast ones. Look at the interior of a Road Runner if you want to see sparce comfort. Ever sat in the back seat of a 60's Mustang? It's like riding on a wagon seat.

I did also notice the smokes in the shirt pocket, but I can't figure out what the air cleaner lid was doing like that. Doesn't seem to make sense. Maybe someone else will have and answer for that one.


Hot day, hot pavement near scoops? Wanted more air for test runs? Iduno.

Compared to a Mustang, Chevelle, Olds were very expensive cars.

But I enjoyed see "Doc" in person kinda

[KeithA0000]

That was cool.
Okay, the cornering made me cringe, but that's not why we have these cars, right boys?
I sure liked the stripe pattern; I'll have to put some thought into that...

[citcapp]

It was a common trait to turn the lid on the air cleaner unside down when you went to the track, it allowed more air into the carb was the thought at the time. This was before the auto manufactures thought about induction aircleaners.

[Jamesbo]

Interesting, I don't remeber that, but do remember Yellow River Drag strip in March 1969, and haven't been to a Stirp sence that date. Tragic

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by citcapp

It was a common trait to turn the lid on the air cleaner unside down when you went to the track, it allowed more air into the carb was the thought at the time. This was before the auto manufactures thought about induction aircleaners.

The problem is that flipping the lid causes the engine to ingest warm underhood air and defeats the whole purpose of the under-bumper scoops. There's about a 1 hp increase for every 7 degree decrease in inlet temp.

[z11375ss]

When I was a kid we would flip the air cleaner on my mom's 69 chevelle with a 350. It made an incredible sound with the two barrel gulping more air than gm thought possible. Maybe that's what they were going for. Just kidding and thanks for posting the vid. The 69 H/O is my favorite musclecar. Someday I may even own one. Jamesbo I envy you. Wonder why they never offered a 4 speed in 68 or 69.

[Dapapadon]

Cool vid! Thanks for posting.

Don

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by z11375ss

Wonder why they never offered a 4 speed in 68 or 69.

Iduno, I've often wondered alot about these cars. I guess it was sort of a marketing effort to promote Hurst Products with Linda Vaugh leading the parade.

But why didn't they put on Hurst Wheels insted of those [69 H/O only] 15" wheels? Too expensive? Iduno

I also have wondered by the Special Modification list doesn't even mention the wheels. Maybe They were Free

[69ho aurora]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

Iduno, I've often wondered alot about these cars. I guess it was sort of a marketing effort to promote Hurst Products with Linda Vaugh leading the parade.

But why didn't they put on Hurst Wheels insted of those [69 H/O only] 15" wheels? Too expensive? Iduno

I also have wondered by the Special Modification list doesn't even mention the wheels. Maybe They were Free

The rims aren't on the supplemental window sticker because they are on the Olds window sticker. The supplemental list only lists what Hurst (Demmer) did. The rims, 455 engine, and a number of the other changes were actually done by Olds and listed on the regular window sticker. See the window sticker for my car:




Hurst did use Hurst rims on a couple of the 68 prototypes and a set of gold ones on one of the convertibles, but GM wouldn't allow non-approved (and heavily tested) rims on production cars. They actually used Cragars on early 69 prototypes. For what it's worth now, the longevity of the Hurst rims was nothing to brag about. I'm glad to have the chrome steel rims on mine. I've never heard of anyone having original Hurst-brand rims that didn't need serious restoration even years ago. Most of my 69 rims (I've got 13) are in very nice shape and only needed a repaint to look nice (not brand-new perfect, but nice). Can't complain after 39 years...

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by 69ho aurora

but GM wouldn't allow non-approved (and heavily tested) rims on production cars.

Very interesting, thanks, But what about the Hurst Wheels GM put on GTO's?

[69ho aurora]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

Very interesting, thanks, But what about the Hurst Wheels GM put on GTO's?

I'm no GTO expert. I know there was that Gold GTO Tiger (66 or 67?) car that had gold Hurst rims on it, but I think that was a one off promotional car, and I don't think GM was the group doing the promotion. I could certainly be wrong about that. Were there some other GTOs that came with Hurst rims?

[69ho aurora]

I also just saw a note on another board from guy who put reproduction Hurst rims on his 68 H/O. He had clearance issues with the disc brakes. There were clearance issues with some of the factory rims and disc brakes in (at least) 68 as well. He wasn't sure if his issues were due to them being repro rims or not. That could have been a factor as well...

[Jamesbo]

I googled up GTO Hurst Wheels and found this

"Hurst created a specific gold 1965 GTO convertible to promote the wheels, and made a few sets with gold anodized spokes and trim rings for the ads. This created the impression that Hurst wheels were available from Pontiac dealers on the GTO, but that was never the case. A dealer would install these wheels if you specified that at the time of purchase, but they would simply buy them from a retailer and install them at the dealership. "

Sorry, I jes thought........................but obviously didn't know.Sorry my mistake.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

........ flipping the lid causes the engine to ingest warm underhood air ........

Not to mention, negating the supercharging effect of the Ram Air setup.

Norm

[Olds64]

Finally saw the video. That was pretty cool. It sure was a different time in the 60s.

One thing I was wondering... I noticed the above window sticker says his car had a supplementary transmission cooler and the TH 400 transmission. Were there any other modifications to the transmission besides the cooler and aftermarket shifter. I imagine the dual gate shifter allows the driver to shift manually or automatically. Am I correct (I've never seen one in person)? I guess the transmission was a stock TH 400 with a different valve body. Did the TH 400s that went into the Hurst have upgraded internals?

Just curious.

[69ho aurora]

Originally Posted by Olds64

Finally saw the video. That was pretty cool. It sure was a different time in the 60s.

One thing I was wondering... I noticed the above window sticker says his car had a supplementary transmission cooler and the TH 400 transmission. Were there any other modifications to the transmission besides the cooler and aftermarket shifter. I imagine the dual gate shifter allows the driver to shift manually or automatically. Am I correct (I've never seen one in person)? I guess the transmission was a stock TH 400 with a different valve body. Did the TH 400s that went into the Hurst have upgraded internals?

Just curious.

The transmission cooler was a regularly available option on any auto-trans car. It is pretty rare, but not H/O specific.

The 68 and 69 H/O did get specific transmissions. The 68 got a modified 'OW' code TH400 (from the 68 W-30) with one fewer intermediate clutch plate and a different governor and valve body. There is no special code for this trans. For 69, they got their own transmission code, an 'OH'. This actually started out as a full-size car transmission (long shaft) and had quite a few parts changed out, but nothing truly exotic.

There is only a single cable going from the dual-gate shifter to the transmission so there is no difference in how the transmission works based on which shifter "gate" you use. There has always seemed to be a lot of confusion on that with some people thinking that using the ratched-gate side of the shifter gave you something like full manual transmission control. Unfortunately, not true.

[mugzilla]

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Not to mention, negating the supercharging effect of the Ram Air setup.

Norm

There is no supercharging effect at speeds under 160 miles per hour ...

The open element allows the engine to "see" more atmosphere ...

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by mugzilla

There is no supercharging effect at speeds under 160 miles per hour ........

Any idea why they called it "ram Air"?

According to the Chrondek at Famoso Raceway the difference was 3 miles per hour, up from 113.

How much HP do you think it took to make that happen?

Norm

[Olds64]

There is only a single cable going from the dual-gate shifter to the transmission so there is no difference in how the transmission works based on which shifter "gate" you use. There has always seemed to be a lot of confusion on that with some people thinking that using the ratched-gate side of the shifter gave you something like full manual transmission control. Unfortunately, not true.

So what did the Hurst dual gate shifter do? I am confused...

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by Olds64

So what did the Hurst dual gate shifter do? I am confused...

If you pull it over into the right gate of the "H" configuration. It allows you to go from D 1,2,3 without the risk of mistakenly going into N and having your engine over reving and going Kabooooooooooooom.

[mugzilla]

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Any idea why they called it "ram Air"?

According to the Chrondek at Famoso Raceway the difference was 3 miles per hour, up from 113.

How much HP do you think it took to make that happen?

Norm

I think the main advantage is getting "cold" air to the carb ...

They called it ram air because it sounded cool ...

[mugzilla]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

If you pull it over into the right gate of the "H" configuration. It allows you to go from D 1,2,3 without the risk of mistakenly going into N and having your engine over reving and going Kabooooooooooooom.

Isn't there a ratchet mechanism on the His side ...

[Jamesbo]

Since Joe isn't up yet, I pasted his answer from a few months ago in the "transmission section", There's more if you would like to look it up. I trust he won't mind.He jes splains things more better.

"The dual gate is intended to allow you to upshift while drag racing while ensuring that the 1-2 shift will only go into second and the 2-3 shift will only go into third. If you hit neutral, you shift linkage is not adjusted properly.

You start with the lever in the RH gate and all the way back. Launch the car. When you want to shift to second, slap the shifter diagonally towards the right front corner of the car. If it's working properly, you will go into second and stop. Release the lever and it springs into position for the next shift. When you want third, again slap diagonally towards the front right corner of the car. The shifter should stop in third gear."
__________________
Joe Padavano

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by mugzilla

I think the main advantage is getting "cold" air to the carb ...

They called it ram air because it sounded cool ...

Well, Olds DID pride itself on locating the air inlets at the areas of highest pressure differential. Many of the other manufacturer's "ram" air systems had inlets located in areas that were actually LOWER pressure than ambient. The Ford shaker scoops were among the worst. The reality is, however, that by the time the air flow makes it's way through the convoluted 4" tubes on the 66-69 O.A.I. systems, there's probably precious little pressure differential at the carb. The air temp difference is the real source of the HP increase. Opening the air cleaner element under the hood negates both any pressure differential AND the lower inlet temperature.

On a related note, I continue to laugh at the "cold air" systems for the ricers where the factory outside air inlet (which really does suck colder air) is replaced by an open element air filter under the hood, usually right next to the exhaust manfold and right behind the radiator. DOH!

[69ho aurora]

There was actually quite a bit of engineering in the scoop setups used on the 60s W-cars.

For example: I often wondered why the 68 and 69 had different scoops (the 69 openings are taller and narrower than what they used on the 68s). I've been told it was because of changes in the airflow on the front of the car when they moved the turn signals into the bumper for 69. Apparently the additional turbulence caused more air to go under, rather than into the scoops. Their solution was to increase the height of the opening a bit to get it back to where it should be. Certainly not just window-dressing in the case of Olds...

[Olds64]

James, thanks for explaining the dual gate function. Now that you post that, I recall reading that post Joe made in the past.

The air temp difference is the real source of the HP increase.

Has an intercooler ever been used to gain HP without the addition of a supercharger or turbocharger? Perhaps the HP gain from cold air is negligible compared to the cost of actually installing an intercooler...

[Dapapadon]

Originally Posted by Olds64

So what did the Hurst dual gate shifter do? I am confused...

Mugzilla hinted at it, I've heard people call the shift a His & Hers. Left gate for the ladies and right gate for the guys.

Originally Posted by mugzilla

Isn't there a ratchet mechanism on the His side ...

On flipping the air cleaner lid, I'd guess they 'had' to do it. Back then most every Midwest car guy flipped his air cleaner lid. It let more air in as opposed to the snorkel. So on this day the guys are out flogging a 68 H/O 442. Even with Ram Air, at some point someone mention flipping the a/c lid. You know car guys, takes two minutes and doesn't cost anything... they 'had' to do it. jmo

Don

[mugzilla]

I like the slap shifter ...

You can tell you have one when the hole in the plastic around the shifter is wide

as opposed to being just a round hole ...

Ponchos' and chevies had them. I don't know about Olds...

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

Well, Olds DID pride itself on locating the air inlets at the areas of highest pressure differential ........

As did Chev, with their "Cowl Induction". Both Olds and Chev knew the value of those locations, as "cold air" can be sourced from almost anywhere

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

........ by the time the air flow makes it's way through the convoluted 4" tubes on the 66-69 O.A.I. systems ........

As far as I know, there's not much difference between those systems, and the one on my Red Coupe. Grey coupe is likely more efficient, as it used HVAC duct.



Inlets are under the headlights.

Timeslip comparison between "cold air" without "Ram" (no hood) vs "cold air" with "Ram" (no hood) showed the same 3 HP difference.

Norm

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by Dapapadon

........ It let more air in ........

More important, it let the sound out. At WOT, the "Roar" of the carb showed how much faster the car was going.

Classic definition, of the "Placebo Effect".

Norm

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Dapapadon

Mugzilla hinted at it, I've heard people call the shift a His & Hers. Left gate for the ladies and right gate for the guys.

It's called a "His & Hers" shifter because in the pre-PC early 1960s, Hurst marketed the original aftermarket dual-gate with a key lock on the RH gate. The intent, as shown in their print ads, was that daddy could lock out the RH side so mommy wouldn't play.

[mugzilla]

I always thought that was a li'l sexist ...

[Jamesbo]

After watching the clip again, I don't see the 8 track that is susposed to be in the car.

But let''s not forget, when this clip was made 40 years ago, no one would have dreamed that it would be viewed and picked apart in the year 2008 by a bunch of Olds guys watching it on Youtube all over the world.

Back then we were still reading Orwell's 1984 as futuristic

[Olds64]

Orwell's 1984

Excellent book!

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by mugzilla

I always thought that was a li'l sexist ...

A li'l sexist???

Like I said, it was pre-PC.

[71rocket]

Thanks a million for the video, great.

[666 the legend]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

Iduno, I've often wondered alot about these cars. But why didn't they put on Hurst Wheels insted of those [69 H/O only] 15" wheels? Too expensive? Iduno

I

......I wish they did use the ..HURST WHEELS...But then again..they did make the RIMS just for the 69 H/O...instead of using the HURST WHEELS which other cars had used..So..?? Kinda makes the 69 H/O's more Unique..??

[93Code86GN]

The Hurst wheels, while very desirable today especially on '65/'66 GTO's (a restored set can bring $3500), were unfortunately a dismal marketing failure.

They were expensive ($69/ea) by 60's standards, too heavy (bad for unsprung weight considerations), and only available in 14" rims which caused interference problems with many disc brakes setups.

They sure are purty though!

Here's an interesting article on the wheels:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/fea...eel/index.html