Cracked block...can it be welded?

[ent72olds]

Wondering if anyone has ever had a cracked block welded? Can it be done? Has it been done successfully? Crack is in a water jacket and believed to be external as there is no water in the oil. The motor still turns 360 with no noise and smoothly with a breaker bar. It is vertical and about 2 inches long. Crack located on driver's side near rear of block in middle. Still weeping water in pictures...like a tear in my eye! Amazingly, freeze-out plugs all intact!

[svnt442]

MAYBE, but unless it's an original "W" car or something like that it's not worth it. Find another block and be done with it.

[ent72olds]

No, not that exotic! It is exactly the year and block I'm looking for! It is a BB...is it not worth it because of price? If that is the only damage, approx what could it cost to properly fix? Obviously, reliability could be an issue if it isn't repaired right, but how to be sure it will hold up after repair? Thanks for all input and opinions!

[svnt442]

The metal looks really stressed. The block would need to be heated up to weld it. Then you'd have to prey it holds.
Welding cast iron just isn't worth it with something like that. It's a rather large crack if you ask me. I'd look elsewhere for another block.
What are you looking for and why does it need to be a particular year?

[ent72olds]

Well, as long as it is a '66 or '67 Toro block (425) I would be happy!

[svnt442]

They are out there. I knew where a couple were a few months ago. There were two 66/67 toros sitting right next to each other in a yard not far from me. The engines were complete the first time I was there. The next time the heads were missing off one, but the other was still complete (the hood was stuck shut).

[84 rocket]

sometimes you can drill two holes one at the top and one at the bottom of the crack then press metal pins in to stop the crack then the block needs heated up(we use a pizza oven) and welded or braised whatever people prefer to call it.. to do this it requiers to engine torn down! then you might as well buy a new block

[Eightupman]

Yes. It can be done. How much money you have? Friend of mine threw a rod in his 425 and cracked the cylinder wall. yanked the sleeve... baked it, used a high nickle alloy rod to weld it all back up, resleeved it and is about to drag it. Filled the block 9coolant passages) with concrete too... some racer trick I guess.

Guess he has more $$$ than sense.

John

[kaz442]

I have a block if you need and I'm some what local being in NJ off route 80. Don't know what year, came out of a toro. Had C heads on it if that helps ('67?). $100 if your interested let me know. JKaz

[Olds64]

I'm sure it would be difficult to repair. You have to decide if it is worth it. If I had a crack like that in my block I would take it to a shop in KCMO that has done cast iron welding for Oldsguy and I in the past. They are excellent craftsman and have great prices.

[bccan]

I'd bone that block, crack is big, blocks easy to come by. If you care, I have one, same as Kaz, don't remember details but it had "C" heads. The fact I have one doesn't influence my opinion, I would not entertain fixing that block for one second. I have had broken off "ears" etc repaired successfully but they were nothing of a structural nature like yours and weren't near water.

5 minutes west of Hartford, CT if it is any easier to get to for you.

[joe_padavano]

A crack in the cooling jacket only can be repaired fairly easily. This only needs to be a sealing weld, not a structural weld. I have the same problem with the numbers-matching block from my 69 442. I live in an area that still has working farms (though they are disappearing rapidly) and there is an old-time welder in town who specializes in repairing cast iron farm equipment. He has successfully welded a cast iron drill press base for me. He did not need to heat the cast iron, but prep and proper welding rod were critical. The repair was much more involved than the crack you have (since mine was a structural weld) and only cost me about $75. Much of that cost was for the special nickel welding rods.

[Bluevista]

You know this is how I would fix it.

ducttape.jpg

Duct tape should have it's own sticky thread, pun intended.

Those farm areas have great NAPA stores, they'll make up hydraulic hoses on the spot and have a lot of welding supplies. The farmers do a lot of welding building monster trucks and tractors for tractor pulls around here.

Old timers can fix anything, I can't wait to get to be one so I can fix anything too.
I can't fix much now so I guess I must not be one yet.

[Eddie Hansen]

Erik, I am sure i saw a 425 at hansen racing , give Larry a call, tell him Eddie Hansen sent ya LOL...
732 748-9770

I would think 66 67 motors would have b heads but I have to agree if your spending all this money get something good to start with... I know when I went to Larry for rebuilding my motor the advice given wasn't what I "wanted" to hear, but after checking here and other places it was pretty much on the money....

http://hansenracing.us/

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Eddie Hansen

I would think 66 67 motors would have b heads...

1966 used B heads, 1967 used C heads.

[sethj78]

Ive seen a guy fix a block with a puddy type stuff he got off an air force base. Like quick steal. He kneaded it like play dough and slapped it over the crack, pushed it flat and never had another problem. It was in the water jacket of a 460 ford, like joe said it only has to seal. We have some welding rod at the shop (inweld c1717) that we weld cast iron but the weld is super hard

[Olds64]

Seth, did your friend use JB weld to fix his Ford block? That's what it sounds like. You might be able to get away with using JB weld to seal a crack in the water jacket, but I would rather spend the money to get it fixed properly.

[Oldsguy]

Originally Posted by Bluevista

You know this is how I would fix it.

Attachment 9823

Duct tape should have it's own sticky thread, pun intended.......

Speaking of that, one of my favorite shows is going to devote a whole program to duct tape....Mythbusters. Should be fun to watch.

Old timers can fix anything, I can't wait to get to be one so I can fix anything too.
I can't fix much now so I guess I must not be one yet.

You don't have to be old to be a good fixer-upper although hard times force people to be frugal, we may start seeing more of this happening with the economy the way it is.

[84 rocket]

where is the crack? if its close to the bottom you could put a little block filler in there like the drag racers use to strenghten the cylinder walls

[ent72olds]

Thanks to all with your suggestions! Obviously, I'd like to keep this block and have it repaired properly. If it cost me $75 to have repaired, I don't think that is a bad decision....the crack is located on the left side at the back of the block behind the cylinder. No water in oil, and only water seeping from crack! It looks like the crack was behind where the starter bolts up being out of a Toro...A couple of good people have reached out(Jeff, John, Eddie Hansen, and bccan) with blocks available. It is an option, but by the time you buy it, ship it or travel to get it, where am I going? And there is still no guarantee that block will be good. I won't be building the motor this year anyway, but I would like to get this problem solved for peace of mind! Joe, thanks for the info on the starter! At least there is some good news!

[bulldog]

Eric,This is an easy repair.I have done this a couple of times.First before you take it to be welded you should give it an acid bath.And when it's welded do not heat the block this will cause the crack to expand and then the repair will get to much material in it.This will probably cost a little extra because of the cleaning but like any welding job the part should be oil grease and rust free.

[ent72olds]

Originally Posted by bulldog

Eric,This is an easy repair.I have done this a couple of times.First before you take it to be welded you should give it an acid bath.And when it's welded do not heat the block this will cause the crack to expand and then the repair will get to much material in it.This will probably cost a little extra because of the cleaning but like any welding job the part should be oil grease and rust free.

Bulldog, thanks for the positive response...if you saw the pic of the crack, and you say it is repairable, and that you have done it, makes me feel a little less banged up about it!

[gmrocket]

that can be fixed with stitch welding. its actually tapered threaded plugs made by irontite&they work. i have used them amny times to reapaire much larger cracks in diesel blocks that are in more critical areas. you first need to mag it to see where the ends of the crack are. then its just a matter of drilling/tapping&installing the plugs. no heat is involved

[ent72olds]

Originally Posted by gmrocket

that can be fixed with stitch welding. its actually tapered threaded plugs made by irontite&they work. i have used them amny times to reapaire much larger cracks in diesel blocks that are in more critical areas. you first need to mag it to see where the ends of the crack are. then its just a matter of drilling/tapping&installing the plugs. no heat is involved

Thanks for the input! I'm starting to lean toward the repair route with the feedback so far...

[grandma'sH/O]

My grandfather ran a radiator and welding repair business from 1948-2000. I have seen him weld cast iron many times, he would always heat up the whole piece to be welded, are a large area around the weld. I have even seen him weld up exhaust manifolds, so I know cast iron can be welded. But with that said, I still would not start a engine build with a cracked block, something like that would worry the hell out of me... Look at it this way, you got alot of good engine parts for a good price...

[Danny Wiseley]

Remember, if it froze hard enough to crack that spot, it was probably the same temperature all over. You may have four or five more areas that are only 0.010 under the surface. I bought an engine with what appeared to be a small repairable freeze crack, and when I pulled the heads, the entire side of the block was separated from the cylinders. . .
The rotating assembly was excellent, though, and it had a good set of C heads.
DW

[ent72olds]

Originally Posted by Danny Wiseley

Remember, if it froze hard enough to crack that spot, it was probably the same temperature all over. You may have four or five more areas that are only 0.010 under the surface. I bought an engine with what appeared to be a small repairable freeze crack, and when I pulled the heads, the entire side of the block was separated from the cylinders. . .
The rotating assembly was excellent, though, and it had a good set of C heads.
DW

All good points! I would have to take the heads off, drop the pan and rotating assy before committing to a repair. Probably should have it hot tanked and pressure tested or magna fluxed before repair also to find any other damage. Could turn out to be a cautious waste of mony if it turns out to be junk, but my idea is, buying another used block could put me in the same boat. I would need to do the same tests to an unknown block anyway with no guarantees, correct?
But all good advice so far, and Danny, I like what you said about the small cracks that could be below the surface....

[bulldog]

Originally Posted by gmrocket

that can be fixed with stitch welding. its actually tapered threaded plugs made by irontite&they work. i have used them amny times to reapaire much larger cracks in diesel blocks that are in more critical areas. you first need to mag it to see where the ends of the crack are. then its just a matter of drilling/tapping&installing the plugs. no heat is involved

Erik,
I have an article with pictures about stitch welding,it was done by fellow member of a club that I belong to(mind you it is a 1928 motor).If you wait until someone gets home that can scan it to my computer I will post it here.Most likely sometime Thursday.

[ent72olds]

Sounds good Dan....sounds like useful info!

[Eddie Hansen]

Erik the guy I gave you is a machinist and very honest,all the parts are there at the shop, if you decide to get a replacement block I am sure he would guarentee the block is 100% serviceable. your on long island the drive would be up the southern state or expressway to the belt pkway over the verrazano, over the gothels, then tpke south to exit 9 from the gothels it is about a 40 minute ride to middlesex nj.

That said I have also seen cast iron welded it was with the special rods Joe talked about, they did NOT heat the area, but the welder was turned way up in amps.

I think once you have the block magnafluxed it will show up any other defect, but the magnafluxing is gonna cost some dough too. and then the welding, then any machine work your going to need when you rebuild so do take this into consideration.

I got no dog in this fight, but I really know what disappointment feels like when rebuilding stuff and I often think now not to be penny wise and pound foolish. Just want to see you happy in the hobby

[ent72olds]

I hear you Eddie! My biggest thing is another block I would probably want to invest in magnafluxing anyway for peace of mind, unless the person I buy from would 100% guarantee....I don't mind the ride from LI to Jersey....I'll be passing through there this weekend on my way to Wilmington for business. the way I look at it is Jersey and Conn is pretty much no issue for travel. When the time comes, I will keep your guy in mind if you vouch for him. Has he done work for you?

[Eddie Hansen]

Erik, I am having him do my whole motor he was recommended to me, by another olds guy, and then I checked his reputation with my local mechanic, who gave him rave reviews, went over to his shop, seen his work, long chat, and felt very comfortable with how that went. Then I spoke with several other rodders here at work and he is well known by them.

but the short answer is NO, not yet, but I will have in a few weeks time. it was at the visit that I saw the the 425 and we talked about it...

here is a link to his site but not much on there
http://hansenracing.us/

if you are waiting anyway i plan to drop my motor off with him end of October or in the first couple a weeks in November, It is hard to explain when you "KNOW" a guy isn't BSing you, I just feel he is flat out honest.

so as far as vouching for him, all I can say is I trust him enough to do my rebuild, but he hasn't done any work for me before.

[gmrocket]

www.irontite.com all your answers are here. i have used this method to repair a 10" long freeze crack just above the lifter valley in a 67 400 block. it was done without removing engine from car.

[84 rocket]

hot tanking and magnafuxing is the only way you wanna start an engine build think of that as the first and most important step,use all good parts from your running engine(all should be magged also) also ask person you are buying the block from to forego the payment untill the block you buy passes the mag bench test reusing all parts that you can saves alot of money(ie crank,rods,rockers) any way good luck

[ent72olds]

Originally Posted by gmrocket

www.irontite.com all your answers are here. i have used this method to repair a 10" long freeze crack just above the lifter valley in a 67 400 block. it was done without removing engine from car.

Interesting, unfortunately, the motor if out of the car....

[gmrocket]

huh? if its out then that would be easier.

[ent72olds]

Originally Posted by gmrocket

huh? if its out then that would be easier.

According to what I read on the link you posted( unless I read wrong!) the block repair stuff is used while the engine runs....mixed in with water and engine is then run......if engine is out, then used in conjunction with a repair. Then, when block is being pressure tested after repair, used as a "finishing touch" to help seal repair.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by ent72olds

According to what I read on the link you posted( unless I read wrong!) the block repair stuff is used while the engine runs....mixed in with water and engine is then run......if engine is out, then used in conjunction with a repair. Then, when block is being pressure tested after repair, used as a "finishing touch" to help seal repair.

This is sodium silicate, the same stuff used (in the oiling system) to disable the engines in the Cash for Clunkers program. I'm always skeptical of products like this. How does the sodium silicate know to only fill the leaks and not the passageways in the radiator or heater core?

[gmrocket]

Originally Posted by ent72olds

According to what I read on the link you posted( unless I read wrong!) the block repair stuff is used while the engine runs....mixed in with water and engine is then run......if engine is out, then used in conjunction with a repair. Then, when block is being pressure tested after repair, used as a "finishing touch" to help seal repair.

you misunderstood what i was saying. look at their threaded plugs, not that stuff you dump in the cooling system. and like they say, pressure test it afterwards with water&the liquid sealer.

[gmrocket]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

This is sodium silicate, the same stuff used (in the oiling system) to disable the engines in the Cash for Clunkers program. I'm always skeptical of products like this. How does the sodium silicate know to only fill the leaks and not the passageways in the radiator or heater core?

you use it when pressure testing after the repair, the rad shouldnt be in the system, although it can be used for emergency repair at the track or on the road