Twilightblue28

I will appreciate any and all help fellow members, including our moderator, Joe, can provide direction. There is a 1970 Cutlass convertible with ac and automatic trans, born triple black with 66,000 original miles. The car has been restored from the ground up. The seller is forthright and has disclosed the car is not a 344 car! The seller has also told me that the car has a 1970, 455 W30 engine, with the automatic cam(same as the 455/365 automatic cam. Car has F heads, W-30 distributor, and W-30 carburetor. Red inner wells, etc. The interior has been changed from Cutlass door panels, etc. I have asked about the transmission and waiting for his response. I am also waiting on the rear axle stampings to see how far he went to convert the entire car. Boxed control arms are also installed. One of my questions is there any difference in the lower end of the W-30, ie: compression etc. Any other material differences? Any way to verify 1) the correct year of the engine, 2) Any numbers that are cast on engine to verify that it was originally a W-30, or does it matter as long as the correct W-30 engine parts were added? I am under no illusion that I would be buying an authentic W-30. The car is on Ebay, the seller is asking 100K, and will negotiate. I will as usual appreciate any information provided in order to make an educated decision. In addition, I know I will not get W-30 money when I decide to sell the car, nor am I looking to. But is there a chance I can get close to my money back,considering the modifications made to the car. Lastly, I am not looking to deceive anyone that this car is a 442 let alone a W-30. I will again appreciate any help provided. Thank you, Twilghtblue28A

jensenracing77

It is a Cutlass Convertible. Even with the goodies on it, it is not worth anywhere near the asking price. You can get a regular Cutlass Convertible in that condition for under $30K and would not take 70K to make it a clone using real parts.

jensenracing77

I am not saying it is not a nice car but for that much money I would expect a clone to have correct everything and it is mostly aftermarket parts. It does NOT have the W-27 rear end in it. That is a $10K rear end that he claims to have in it and it don't.

twilightblue28A

Thank you. That was only part of what I was asking.There were questions about the mehanicals on a W-30. I agree. The asking price is high, but it is negotiable. Also the car has 66K original miles.
Also, the car is already built. That has to account for something. Thank you again. Twilightblue28A

Twilightblue28

He agrees he doesn't have the W-27 rear, only the cover. Out of curiosity, why are you saying the parts are aftermarket if the heads are Olds heads, Olds Engine,etc. Not trying to be argumentative, but what makes them aftermarket? Thanks again, Twilightblue28A

jensenracing77

The rest of the questions I assumed would be nothing to be worried about when it is over double it's value in my opinion. He has far to many false claims for me to trust anything. How do we know it is even a 66K mile car other than his claims. His claims are proven false on other things so I would run. After a restoration then miles no longer matter anyway. The passenger back door panel don't even match up to the door proper. For that asking price it needs to much. The red inner fenders are repop and not "real" originals.

jensenracing77

Alternator, brakes, Master cylinder, Sway bar, red inner fenders, A/C lines, Likely the intake manifold, Water outlet, radiator, carburetor..... list could go on. All this is aftermarket parts. Do as you wish, I have no skin in the game. Just trying to inform you.

2blu442

I'm with Eric on this. For a clone car the starting price isn't anywhere close to what the market price should be. I think you should keep looking or have one built yourself for significantly less than their asking price.

If this is your car and you are the seller you need to do some more research on the car to come up with a price that it will sell for.

John

Twilightblue28

I appreciate your opinions. And that's why I asked. I still would like to know for my own education, is there any difference in the lower end of the W-30, ie: compression etc. Any other material differences? Any way to verify 1) the correct year of the engine, 2) Any numbers that are cast on engine to verify that it was originally a W-30, or does it matter as long as the correct W-30 engine parts were added? Thank you!

2blu442

The bottom end of the W30 motor used the same parts as other 455's. You can look for the vin derivative stamped on the block to see what year and what assembly plant it came out of. But at this point that shouldn't affect the value of the car. All W30's were manufactured in the Lansing plant. But so were lots of other models. Attached is a photo of the stamping on a 350 engine. The 455 will be in the same location. If you post what's stamped on this car's engine we can share with you what it tells us. John

PA221822.jpg

twilightblue28A

Thanks John,


Does that mean if the VIN derivative that is stamped on the block is not from Lansing, Michigan that the engine can not be a W-30 engine. Thanks again

joe_padavano

For reference, here's the link.

I'll pretty much echo what others here have said. Aftermarket brakes, suspension, alternator, wheels, tires, and exhaust. Repro red inner fenders and W27 cover. Looks like an E-brock intake, Holley carb, and Holley mechanical fuel pump. Given all that, why do people waste their money on repro "GM" hoses? "F" heads may or may not be real. Assuming they are, they're worth about $4K. The "correct" short block for an A/C car is no different than any other 455 used in an AT 442 or W33 or W34 that year.

If you paid someone to do all this work, you'd probably have spent $60K to build a car worth about $40K, and it will still have a 342670Mxxxxxx VIN.

BangScreech4-4-2

Wait, I'm confused -- are "twilightblue28A" and "Twilightblue28" the same person?

BangScreech4-4-2

I wouldn't buy anything from a guy who would put those wheels on that car.

twilightblue28A

My mistake, I am Twilightblue28A!! Sorry

twilightblue28A

I have written to see if my correct name twilightblue28A can be corrected on this post to avoid confusion. I also see there is a difference in twilightblue28 and twilightblue28A. I am waiting for a response. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

2blu442

If the motor does not show a Lansing build then you know for a fact it didn't come in a W30. But there were lots of 455's built in Lansing that did not go into W30's. So even with a Lansing built 455 there's no way to prove if the motor was originally from a W30 or some other application. John

joe_padavano

I read "built as" to mean "motor built to W-30 specs", not that it was a real W-30 motor. Of course, as we've seen, an AT W-30 motor isn't any different from an AT 442 motor in 1970.

oldcutlass

As of today twilightblue28 is no longer available for signin. I cannot change the user name for your previous posts.

oldcutlass

I'm on the same page as everyone else, there is no way the car is worth the asking price. However, that's not saying that someone with little knowledge may fall in love and purchase it. These things happen.

2blu442

Joe, here's a sentence from the OP's initial post.

"The seller has also told me that the car has a 1970, 455 W30 engine"

So... it could be the seller is claiming it to be the real deal from a W30. After I read your post I look at the pictures again and agree the intake does not look like a factory W30 intake. I also noticed an aftermarket aluminum radiator. There's all kinds of things that make me wonder about this car.

John

Gary M

No way in hell is a clone worth 100k. You have no garrentee the motor was built right, (not accusing) but it happened to me. Is the body work professional? After you understand my first sentence the rest is irrelevant. It's your money though. Triple Black is awesome but I bet you like green too if you know what I mean. Good luck

Gary M

There is a70 triple black cutlass on eBay that is in St. Louis right now. 30 thousand range. Don't know anything about it. Just throwing it out there. It's over priced IMO. Mine was numbers matching with heavy documentation and a Thornton hood. Car was completely restored and only got upper 30's for.

Gary M

If I remember correctly 442's had a better cam,distributor,carb,transmission and handling package. You could not get the W-30 package without having the 442 package. Others will correct me if I'm mistaken.

shiftbyear

This guy is fishing for the "THE BIGGEST CATCH OF THE DAY", I can appreciate all the work that went into this car, but all in vein. If you ever had to sell the car later, you'd be very disappointed at what people would offer you. Good post, good forum.

Gary M

The seller has ZERO transactions on eBay so it's hard to find out his track record. Seems like I've seen those pictures before. Need to Internet search them to see what comes up. Of course with a price like that it may have been for sale quite some time ( or will be).

joe_padavano

Not really. The short block (including cam) was the same in all AT 442s, AT W-30s, W-33 Deltas, W-34 Toros, and W-32 Supremes. In fact, they all had E heads except the W-30, which had F heads (though there is negligible flow difference between them in stock form). Carb calibrations and advance curves may have varied slightly, but not enough to matter. Only the MT W-30 motor was substantially different in 1970.

As for the rest, this car has what appear to be aftermarket suspension parts and clearly has aftermarket brakes. Trans calibration on this car is unknown. The intake is not a factory W-30 aluminum intake from what I can see in the photo. It looks like a Performer, possibly with the E-brock logo ground off.

droptopron

Not here to hate, but IMO I don't see $100K assuming this is it.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Oldsmob...m=112215669504


Here is a link with more pics
https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds...2/1890673.html


Nice car but prob worth 1/2. Rarity is what gives a car its value in most cases. Funny - guy isn't far from my house but I don't think I've ever seen it around. Car is also a bit of a 'tweener. Not full resto mod or full tribute. Prob worth more if he went all the way with one type of build.


For comp, this is presented as the genuine article. You'd be better off trying to come up with the extra cash for something like this - IF it checks out
http://www.streetsideclassics.com/ve...tlass-442-w-30

Gary M

joe_padavano

Not really. Musclecars with three speed manual transmissions are rare, but not particularly desirable and definitely not worth as much as four speed cars. 64 442s are far more rare than 1964 GTOs, but not worth nearly as much (in fact, there were about 10 times as many GTOs made that year). 69 Camaros are the opposite of rare but bring big dollars.

droptopron

Should have worded that better. Rarity & desirability give a car it's value. My point was adding desirable parts to a garden variety car doesn't make it the same as the desirable model it mimics.

joe_padavano

True statement.

As I noted above, the value of this (or any) car depends on what the buyer wants. If someone wants a W-30 convert look-alike that has improved handling and braking, great. Personally, I'd rather have a car I can drive without fear of damaging a rare musclecar. If one paid to have a car like this built, it would not be cheap. I estimated $60K to build it above; I could see that price being higher. If someone has the money and desire, more power to him/her. It certainly isn't worth $100K to me, nor would the marketplace support that price, but it always costs more to build a car than it is worth.

Gary M

I had 50,000 in mine and sold for 38000. Would overspend again (and will) but not as much as this car is over budget. Awesome car though.

Diego

The 1 of 10 AC thing is BS that doesn't seem to die.

joe_padavano

I stop reading when I come across any "one of XXX" claims in an ad.

What I really don't understand is why people seem to put a premium on these loaded W-30 cars with A/C. Is a "real" W-30 too fast for you?

jaunty75

There are actually THREE legs on the stool of automotive values. Rarity, desirability, and condition. All three are needed for a car to be truly high value.

BlackGold

Ah ..... but you forgot Perceived Value, the fourth leg of the stool.

And I don't know why Joe's hating on W-30s with A/C. Hey, it can get hot in the staging lanes!

jaunty75

I haven't forgotten anything. Perceived value is subjective and will depend on who is doing the perceiving.

Rarity is objective. Once all of a particular type of car are counted, that's how many there are. If we can't count them all, we can make educated guesses as to the approximate number remaining based on scrappage rates, original popularity, and other factors. There's generally no real dispute about the current rarity of a particular car.

Ditto for condition. A car that needs rust repair needs rust repair. If the engine needs a rebuild, it needs a rebuild. There's usually no real dispute about a car's condition.

Desirability is a little less easy to measure, but it is still pretty much commonly accepted. More people want 442s than want F-85s. More people want Cutlasses than want Delta 88s. More people want convertibles than want fixed-roof cars. These statements, of course, are not true 100% of the time, but for the most part they are. There's a reason the book value of a '69 Cutlass S convertible in showroom condition is perhaps $20,000 while the book value of a same-condition, similar-numbers-remaining '69 Cutlass 4-door sedan is half that.

stevengerard

I agree with everyone else, its just not worth it. What many folks seem to not realize is that even 442 convertibles are rather rare (IIRC 2933 made) that is not a heck of a lot, even less were W-30s (264). If you are looking for a great car at a great deal look for a finished 1970 Cutlass convertible, there were many more of those made and look just like a 442 from 20 feet away. If you have your heart dead set on a W30 clone that's a cheap way of doing it. As mentioned you can find them for 30k and under. If you want the real deal get a W30 that needs work, they are out there.

If I didn't already own a couple there would be no way I'd be buying one now unless I fell into it luckily. Prices are so out of whack and as Joe and others mentioned except for part numbers an automatic 1970 W30 is really no different than a standard 442 or a Cutlass with a 455 (SX).

Also many W30 convertibles (especially the automatics) came loaded so 1 of X doesn't cut it for me. I'm sure with only 264 made everyone out there is most likely a 1 of 1 or 2 as there were so many combination of options. But every W30 automatic convertible I have seen in person has had AC, I'm sure there are plenty without but most automatics seemed to be relatively loaded. As Diego always says there is no way to actually tell, just because less Cutlii were made in a certain color doesn't mean the W30 was made with the same proportion of color treatments.