DynoDon88

Hi guys! Am wondering if theres a website or survey on buying muscle/classic/resto-mods as investments? (Especially Olds' of course). I took the boss to a little local show n shine and I think she's finally caught the bug! ( only 1 Olds and 1 rat rod w/ Rocket motor-I'd love to change that ratio for sure) We have some $ to invest & I need facts & figures to convince her & the bank. I'm hoping to make my Olds a resto (once I buy it of course) I know I'll never get back any $ for my time working on it, but most of us do it for the love and fun of it, right?! If I can convince her it's certainly not going to depreciate and hopefully Appreciate I may be in business! I guess the Auction houses probably have info, but I'm wondering if there's info on private sales somewhere , too? I'll let you guys chime in now! Thanx in advance!! DynoDon88

don71

I wouldn't consider muscle cars or classics as an investment.

They are a risk and a liability.

Simply googling "old car pricing" will give you a lot of sources.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...0car%20pricing

BangScreech4-4-2

X2. I would never buy an old car expecting to make money. I just buy what I want and sometimes I get lucky, but most of the time I don't.

If you like it, buy it, but you'll have to think of another reason to convince your wife. Tell her it'll be good for your health.

PS: However, from what I've seen at the auctions you're on the right track. Restoration is definitely the best way to go in terms of at least preserving your capital. Customs and restomods start to look dated pretty fast, and once that happens they depreciate rapidly.

Bozang1

The old "musclecars" and most any other old car are great investments. I have 2, working on a 3rd and always looking. Old cars and land are great investments. Cars won't ever go down in value. Land may fluctuate but is increasingly harder to get. Cars are harder to find, especially since cash for clunkers so they DEFINATELY are going up.
No worries, my wife doesn't completely understand either. Trust me, if she did, I'd have a lot more cars in the stable.
Good luck, make a good decision on your purchase, saving a little now could cost a fortune later. Think of them as an asset. You can always "cash out" if you need to. I used to flip cars and have ALWAYS doubled my $ or better. Boz

Bozang1

I guess I should clarify: as an INVESTMENT, it would depend on what you buy, it's condition, how much you pay etc.
if you buy an old cutlass for $500 and just flip it for 3 grand sure, good deal. But if you buy that same car and decide to restore it (dropping 17 grand into it) probably not a good investment. Car may only be worth 13.
There are soooo many variables. Each situation is different. Do your homework

Don R.

Bozang is right, do your homework. Musclecars can be a good investment but they have been pretty volatile over the years with at least two major bubble - bust events that I can remember. They are down in price now looking at reality. (NOT Barrett Jackson!) Like stocks you have your blue-chips like Hurst/Olds and W-30's but there is a lot of more risky marginal choices. Make a short list of cars you are interested in then track sales online. If you can afford it buy a car that is already restored, some are relative bargains that cannot be duplicated at today's crazy restoration costs. Good luck.

83hurstguy

Muscle cars that hold or increase value are the same as any other collector car... extremely rare, likely unmolested, documented, and not typically used as a car (aka treated as an art piece). Typical restomods or run of the mill 442's are not investments... they take money to license, insure, and maintain, especially if you drive them, and when you deduct that from a perceived increase in value, you'll find the gains aren't much, if any.

Granted, you can help minimize the cost of your hobby by being smart and purchasing cars at a fair price and not overspending on it, or get lucky, buy something under market value and flip it (e.g. get lucky, buy a 442 for cheap, find paperwork that it's a w30). That's just intelligent spending though, not what I would call an investment.

Muscle cars are illiquid... when the economy tanks, people don't go out and buy them. If you want assurance that the money would be there at a time you NEED to sell, it's not the way to go. Of course the auction houses and classic car dealers want you to believe they are selling you investments... it's good for their business! If you have justification/motivation to keep doing it, you'll keep spending the money.

My personal opinion is that typical muscle car prices (typical not being the elite cars) have been fairly soft recently (outside of the January auction value hype you see), and the value of muscle cars is going to stay stagnant or decline slightly over time. Younger people aren't as interested in them... the muscle car boom happened when the baby boomers got rid of the kids, had some extra cash and space, and wanted to relive their younger years. As the current wave of muscle car owners moves older and gets out of the hobby, a lot of families aren't interested, and I believe this will start increasing the supply of cars that are available once again. Just my 0.02... a few years back Ford was showing some statistics that the average age of the new Mustang buyer was over 50 years old, and they were trying to figure out how to appeal to a younger demographic again.

There you go, way more than I wanted or should have typed on this...

vette442

I love these cars - I just bought another '72 Supreme that's on the way here, adding to the ones in my signature. But most of them WILL go down in value within a couple generations. Fewer and fewer people will give a darn about them over the long run. That's the same with most material items that current generations value.

There will be some market for some of these cars, but I expect to break even on the original purchase price *at best* when I sell mine in 20-30 years since I have a fairly specialized and documented collection. Then you have years of operating costs, repairs, insurance, etc. Not a good financial investment, but a fun hobby.

Terry

kitfoxdave

Buy it for the fun, sell it when you must... You will likely lose money on it, but you had fun! The convertible is a great car to take to the beach, or cruise around. They seem to hold value a bit better than the hardtops. Take the wife on a trip somewhere, rent a mustang or camaro convertible for a week or two and see how she likes it...

halfmoontrail

These cars are not very good investments, and when you mention the bank...sounds like you want to borrow money to acquire another car - bad idea IMHO.


Find something you like, pay cash, and sell it when you want to or need to. Hopefully you'll make a few bucks.


Steve

BangScreech4-4-2

Very good point, Steve. I missed that.


Never, ever, ever, EVER borrow money to buy an old car.

MDchanic

If you wait and buy the right car at the right price, and if you then scan the flea markets and want ads for parts, instead of scanning the Fusick or YearOne catalogue, and if you do all the work yourself, instead of doing the work of writing checks, then you have a decent chance of coming out ahead monetarily, so long as you don't count your time.

If you do not do all those things, though...

- Eric

Koda

It depends. A F-85 costs as much to restore as a W-30, if all the parts are there. Hi-po parts costs more. Also, if you buy a good deal that doesn't need much, that's good, too. So, if you find a solid, complete 442 for a good deal, chances are you can get all the money out that you put into it. I spent too much money on rare options over the past ten years to come out on top of mine eventually, but I'll enjoy it.

However, money in stocks will generally appreciate better. I wouldn't buy as an investment, and do not borrow to do it.

tru-blue 442

I don't totally agree. I financed my 66 with not a lot down @4.5% interest.
I couldn't build one for what I feel I paid for it. I can enjoy it anytime, the
insurance is only $304 a year with a value of $40K. I am about 1/2 way through
the note and it will probably be a break even when paid for so why not?

m371961

I don't see it as an investment if you are thinking of financing since you mentioned a bank. To expect it to appreciate in value more then the interest you pay if you take a loan is like buying stocks with borrowed money. The buying public changes their tastes also. If you buy something not extremely exotic and don't risk much money, you may get something you can enjoy, pay for you being able to use it, (insurance, tags, gas, maintenance, etc.) and then maybe get rid of it and break even. What kind of return would you expect for your investment?

tru-blue 442

Ha ha, Patrick looks like we posted about the same time and
said just about the same thing. As for myself, not really an investment,
just a joy or mid-life crisis, I didn't really care. That said, who knows
what it will be worth down the road as it were.

BangScreech4-4-2

I'm glad it's worked out so well for you. It sounds like you did your homework, put together a plan and were patient, in which case, yeah, it works. But from what I've seen that would be the exception that proves the rule -- most people (possibly myself included) don't have that kind of discipline.

All I can say is, any financial problems I've ever had in my life, and any problems I've ever seen anybody else have were, 99 times out of a hundred, caused by debt.


I wouldn't borrow money to buy stocks, either.

tru-blue 442

Well ,if I had owed more than the 2 months on my house when
I did find the vert, I would have passed. Because as most know, it is easy
to get in over your head on these. I probably have 15K in my 69 over
the years, and it's still in a million pieces...I need to get hold of Rich Rawlings
and get me some Discovery Channel $$ on that one if it's going to be an investment with any pay-off.

Bernhard

I would say it would be a poor investment as people age the demand will decline.
When times are tough you will have a hard time selling as it is a hobby/toy not a necessity.

When I go to the race track or car show its the gray haired crowed/ old and older there are very few young people involved.

costpenn

If you are concerned about safeguarding your principle, let alone making a return, do not even consider a car that has any rust above a little in the front fender heels unless you are a paint & body man.

BlackGold

So true. In the world of ANY collectible (fine art, stamps, cars) the only ones which have a chance of outpacing inflation are the rarest, most desirable models -- and only those which are in top condition.

And to echo what others have said, it's just silly to borrow money for ANY investment (unless you're starting or expanding a business and have a good business plan; even then, you better not be leveraged too much or the interest will eat all your profits).

DynoDon88

Thanx for the replies but no, I'm not borrowing from bank, just talking to "investment counsellor" there (& private one too). It's just that both wife & I need new vehicles and have some dough to blow. She gets a new truck but I'd love an old Olds to work on and drive for fun. I plan for mild resto mods just to make it safer & more enjoyable to drive (more HP/handling/more HP/power options/more HP/stereo/more HP/comfortable seats/did I say more HP?/etc). I'd be happy to make back whatever I put into it and as I said, I don't expect to make anything for my time and sweat. It'll be worth the $ just to shut down those crappy tuners that are all stereo and muffler. I don't plan to go too radical and the only thing that will give me away will be the fat tires, Cragar S/S's.and the crazy-a** grin on my face! As for gas/insurance etc, I'd have to pay those on a new car anyway so that's a wash. Hope to have some rubber under me soon!DynoDon88

BangScreech4-4-2

That's the ticket -- the important thing is to have fun!

tru-blue 442

I couldn't agree more! Good luck with the hunt.

ioldsnut

I guess I've got lucky a couple of times... Bought a restored 70 442 Convertible, non numbers matching, but nice car in 1998 for 18,500. Drove it every year to shows and cruise-ins then sold it for 36K in 2007. Then bought a restomod 68 Nova SS for 24K in 2007 and sold it this year for 31K. Now I'm working on a 71 442 4spd and hope to drive it a few years then sell for a 76 or 77 442.. We'll see how this one goes!
When I bought the 70, my wife wasn't the happiest about the idea, but when I sold it,,, she changed her tune...Now she says nothing about my "investments" ..lol

BangScreech4-4-2

Ah, but what did you spend on those cars while you owned them?

Intragration

When you're spending time and money fixing up a car, it's going to contribute to your own personal enjoyment of it. It's basically a form of leisure, just like some people spend money on vacations. Breaking even on a car is an unlikely scenario. If you have hopes of seeing the best possible future sale price, make sure you're starting off with a documented rare or desirable car, something that has been shown to do well on the market. Even this isn't a guarantee. I restored a car like this. Started with a very desirable car, it was fairly rust-free, had the body, paint, engine and trans done, did all the rest myself. It's worth about 90% of my cash investment, not accounting for my time, and I can't drive it anymore, it's too nice. Having been there, I'd now rather stick with worthless cars that are fun to drive, and stick my excess cash into real investments.

Tedd Thompson

There are four D's that will make a vintage/muscle car affordable so you can later sell it for a nice profit. They are divorce, death, debt, and desire. If you aren't in a hurry have patience and have your money sitting ready to buy when the opportunity strikes there is a deal out there for you. To buy a car at market price and expect to hold it for a couple three years and make a good profit above what your money is losing not working for you is a very risky venture.... Patience Grasshopper and you will be rewarded...Tedd

Koda

It's against my principles, too, to leave that rust there.

Bozang1

Don't trust your $ to the govt. They will take it and that's that. They don't care. They've already done it and will do it again.
As for the tuner cars. Don't discount them thinking they are toys. Some of them will blow the doors off your worked 455 with ease. Most of the imports running around with their fart cans and fake carbon fiber and gay wings are just plain junk but there are others that are stupid fast and very quick. Sadly, most of them can and will blow the doors off our old tanks.
That's what a lot of the kids are into these days so yes, our cars may dip low on the scale of how wanted they are in the future but like everything else they will come back around again. If you have one, keep it. If you don't have one, get one. Bottom line: Do what makes you happy.

illumined

No car of any vintage should ever be seen as an investment in the sense of them retaining value, very few ever do. The only kind of investment that they should be seen as is how you want to get around and the image of yourself you want to project to the world. As others have said, buy it because you want it for yourself.

rustyroger

If you do buy an old car and use it to have fun, look after it both mechanically and bodywork, it will be worth whatever the market bears at the time when you come to sell. It won't depreciate like a new car, losing a hefty percentage of its value as soon as you drive it away from the dealership, and becoming worth less as time goes by. But it will still have fixed and running costs like any other car.
A very few smart people can make a good living from the classic car market. They are specialist dealers and restorers with a good reputation. Unless you fancy a career change then just accept that owning a classic needn't be too expensive, but will cost money, how much depends on what kind of car you have. A concours W30 or '59 Cadillac or 64-1/2 Mustang will be expensive, your Grandpas old 4 door Olds Delta 88 won't cost much.
See several independent financial advisors before committing your hard earned into investment funds, and remember; nothing is bullet proof, but high yield investments are riskier than blue chip ones. Classic cars are very high risk, from Ferarri to food stamps with a few bad deals if you are unlucky.

Roger.

ioldsnut

Again I think I lucked out... On the Olds about 2grand for upgrades and to maintain it and the Nova,,, hardly nothing. That car was a frame off resto. with all new parts. Great little car with a FI LT1 and 6spd trans... But I had a blast with both cars!

costpenn

I think heel rust might be acceptable when looking at a car for investment return purposes only because most body men could fix that rust correctly and cost effectively (i.e. new fender) Once it gets more advanced into having to cut out a quarter or a cowl area the price and potential for cost snowballing goes way, way up.

ferndaleflyer

If you were old enough to drive in 1965 and you coveted a 65 442, GTO, Chevelle, etc you are now 66 years old----not many could afford these at 16 so they bought them later, much later in most cases. I was 25 when I bought my 66 442 new and had a good job. But the market for these "toys" is diminished every year as us old guys die and there are less left who even care. Ask your children what they would do with your 66 442 and to most it would just be sold to get the money to buy a Honda......

Koda

Sorry, costpenn, I was making a pun. It is against my principles to compromise my principal, etc.

Ferndale is correct. I bought my 442 when I was 25, too, but it was nowhere near new. Old muscle is still loved by some, but some people like new muscle, like the Chargers and the Camaros and the Corvettes, and some people like tuners. It's hard to beat a car with half your weight. I'd love to build up a 70 with a turboed DX block and a tube chassis; it would get rid of some tuners.

bw1339

Stop asking inconvenient questions!

Boilerz25

I tend to think that once you consider the car an investment you will not likely be able enjoy them. By enjoy them I mean drive them the way they were meant to be driven. To echo some of the other comments, the money spent on a restoration rarely yields positive gains unless of course you hold onto the car for a while. By to enjoy..

Sean

Destructor

Buy high, sell low.

halfmoontrail

These examples sort of prove the point. At first glance, you doubled your money on the '70 442...but, (assuming you spent NOTHING on it), your returns are actually about 5% per year, and under 4% for the Nova. The other poster borrowing at 4.5% is unlikely to come out ahead.


I know that these returns are better than bank interest, but don't compare to returns from stocks or real estate.


Steve