GEARMAN69

I am going to flat out say Yes because it has it's own W45 Package option that includes most all other cool W options from the brochure and also only a four barrel engine was the only one available so at least it hits the minimum muscle car requirement. The detractors may say that well it was not promoted in brochures like the W30 and W31 were but...BUT that brochure for 1970 models was published in November 1969 a few months before the Rallye was built or released so of course it wasn't in the brochure. To go deeper , the detractors may say well the W machines had the bigger .472 lift straight grind cams like 308/308 and 328/328 but mind you in defense of the manual trans equipped Rallye they came with the also .472 lift 286/286 cam so there

Do you think Rallye 350 cars are a real W Machine ?

Do you think Rallye 350 cars are NOT a real W car ?

jensenracing77

Although the engine is not the car is still a W machine.

rocketraider

IIRC almost ALL the performance oriented options were in the W subset, so since R350 was RPO W45, and the package was clearly aimed at performance buyers on a budget, I say yes.

To say otherwise would also infer a base 383/TF Road Runner was not part of the Plymouth Rapid Transit System. And the RR definitely WAS.

But there are folks who say W33 Deltas and W34 Toronados aren't W-cars either, never mind the factory referred to them as such. Don't even suggest a W41 Calais or Achieva might be one.

Diego

The Rallye 350 is not a W-Machine.

It's a fine car, but it simply is not a W-Machine. What's next? Cars with Dual-Gate shifters are W-Machines?

GEARMAN69

Great points guys I agree ! Right on the FWD wanna be W cars thats a joke sorry. 442.com has some issues regarding this for sure.. a Quad 4 but not a W45 really...hahaha

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofwmc.htm


9 to 1 so far Diego sorry...

Diego

Popular opinion doesn't suggest the truth.

The fact is that W-Machines were performance packages. The Rallye was more sporty than muscle, created to satisfy a psychographic that the market was demanding - one that wanted the looks without the high insurance premiums.

GEARMAN69

But you make no points to support your choice though. Pretty sure the 83-84 307 ci Rocket sleds don't really qualify either. Just a Survey man

Diego

I made a very good point to support my choice - the Rallye is not a high-performance machine in the same vein. In fact, its motor was standard on the Cutlass Supreme, a quasi-personal luxury car.

drop top olds

To me, a real W machine would have something other than the "stock" 4 barrel 350. Case in point W-31 was a specially prepared engine with a specific balancer, cam, heads and carburetor. W-30 was special cam, heads, carburetor.

What is special about the Rallye 350 engine?

GEARMAN69

Nothing on the engine but why does a W Machine have to be defined solely by the engine rather the WHOLE machine

Diego

The "whole" 4-4-2 with the 455/365 is more "machine" than a Rallye.

GEARMAN69

Now thats just racist ! LOL

joe_padavano

I'm with Diego on this. The whole point of the Rallye 350 was a LOWER-performing car that LOOKED fast, to get around onerous insurance company premiums. The reality is that the Rallye 350 was simply a Cutlass or F-85 with the base engine from the Supreme. I consider the Rallye 350 to be the grandfather of the screaming-eagle Trans Ams and the Mustang II King Cobra - the emasculated, decal-encrusted "musclecars" of the deepest, darkest 1970s.

(Putting on kevlar shorts now...)

marxjunk

i appreciate them for what they are...and thats a big statement for me....i never cared about them...not that im anybody or important...

The crowd i ran with and grew up with, the guys that owned W30s and W31s and 442s considered ralleys parts cars to fix "real cars"..and they all feel the same way today....I and they would rather part down a real ralley and clone a cutlass to a super car than build the ralley


.i know its biased..and i'm not sure i feel that way anymore...ive owned 2 W30 cars..and a couple 442s...but id rather build an F85 post car nothing..than waste my "time" on a ralley

I like them because they are unusual now...more where raped for their parts than where restored..

ive had a few oportunities to buy a couple since i moved to KC than ever before..but ya know what?i jut cant do it...i look at them..and start adding up the parts and what the parts will bring, instead of what it takes to fix it up...does that make me bad?


I dont mnd if other people think they are W cars or special or awesome...i just dont consider it "special"..it was a decal car with a cool hood...and it dd what it was supposed to do..get people in the show room when new...

GEARMAN69

Odd comparison to the Trans Am when that screaming eagle was on the nose of the 70 RAIII/RA IV TA , the 71-72 455HO and the big full hood bird appeared on the 73 TA which all TA had 455's from 71-73 including 73 SD 455 all low octane 8:1 13 second cars bone stock. Stock W30 and stock W31 were only high 13's to low-mid 14's in the original road tests so not exactly out of reach of a performance optioned like mine W45 to keep up with. Well that other comparison to the Ferd Coobra 2 barrel 140 horse wonder mobile is just offensive joke to the TA and the W45 ..LMAO

Diego

The Rallye was never marketed as a W-Machine.

GEARMAN69

See my original post, 1970 brochure came out before the Rallye did and after the short and late build time on the W45 and they didnt sell well after that no wonder.. had the W45 released at same time I lean towards it may have been included in the brochure.

Diego

When it was released is irrelevant to the conversation - if it was a W-Machine, it would have been marketed as such. No ads specify it's a W-Machine, and there are no W badges on it - something that Olds made sure every W-Machine had from 1968-72.

don71

Good discussion to bring up.

It didn't snarl softly nor carry a big stick like W machines.

A marketing strategy that didn't exactly get the results intended. I think it would work today though.

We all know the stories that dealers had to sit on them awhile to sell. It took the buying public a little while to get past all that yellow. With that said, it should have been equipped with the power to back up its look.

But hey, it was a nice try. I guess you know how I voted?

Diego

I know the Rallye's been disparaged for not being too successful, but think about it: a 2nd-tier performance brand selling a special model that only involved the production of special bumpers and a marketing effort selling over 3,000 models in a winding-down market that was experiencing a recession to boot? That's pretty good. Look at other, similar cars:

- Pontiac GT-37: Sold about 1500 units. The standard 350 was not competitive, and very few people ordered the 400.

- Ford Torino SportsRoof: Ford introduced this bodystyle mid-year to give a sporty flavor to the lower-line Torino, but just over 800 were ordered with the 351-4. Perhaps the Torino GT could be another consideration, especially with the standard 351-2, but that suffers the same fate as the base GT-37 - not fast at all.

- Chevrolet: No Heavy Chevy till 1971.

- Mopar: Nothing comparable in the market. Perhaps the Duster 340 was in the same price class, but it was not targeted to the same people; I know there was the Duster Twister, but I think that came out the next year.

- Buick: The GS 350 was not the same target.

- Mercury: The Cyclone GT with the 351-2 is the same as the Torino GT mentioned above.

Did I miss any?

Fun71

My 1970 Cutlass Supreme 350-4bbl, dual exhaust, Dual Gate console car had the same performance capabilities as a Rallye 350 (but it wasn't yellow). So no, a Rallye is not a W car.

Next someone will be claiming a 1972 442 with the base 350-2bbl but Dual Gate and rear wing is a W car.

joe_padavano

1971 T/A:



1976 T/A:



1979 T/A:



The lower the HP, the larger the bird. Not that they were OVERcompensating or anything...

don71

Diego, good point. It was a tuff sell all a round given economic conditions for all makes. They were working with they had in a rough market. Pretty cheap too, from an engineering point of view.

Thanks for bringing that to our discussion.

Diego

Thanks for the kind words, Don! :-)

oldsmobiledave

I voted no. I have never considered the Rallye 350 to be a W machine & never will. No need to apologize for having an opinion.


I would gladly own one & likely will some day. Mine will wear SS1 rims & tires though because Olds designers just over did the yellow look a tad too much for my liking. Frankly I think SS! rims & chrome bumpers on the car when new would have led to much higher sales volumes.


Enjoy your car if you have one.

Koda

My opinion, the W-machine moniker is for performance cars. Not all w codes were a w machine, like the w-25 was only part of it. For instance, a hurst olds through 72 was a w machine, as its w code meant a big engine along with other stuff. A rallye 350 was not a performance car in the engine department; if it had been with a w-31 engine, then sure, but i don't think there were any.

This is akin to a 72 442 being a real 442 with only a 350. Technically, yes, but not really.

pogo69

Back then the rallye 350 was a special car but did not carry a W designation it didnt have to...just like the H/O which only carried a W engine desigbation but was obviously more than a W30 or W32 or W.31

GEARMAN69

Now that is just messed up, smells a bit smart ace. On the other hand , valid points mostly in this thread. Knowing that Olds didn't present it as a W car marketing wise I supposed I should have posted question as "Should the Rallye 350 have been marketed as a W Machine ?" Some pretty serious emotion in some of the posts on the Pro W30/W31 camps really hating on the lil yella fella. Funny it was 9 yes 1 no and now it's 11 to 11..... haha

Eric Anderson

I voted no as well, cool cars, would love to own one. IMHO gotta have a w badge to be a w car.

jensenracing77

The Ram Rod did not have a W badge, Does that mean it is not a W machine?

allyolds68

If a Rallye 350 is a W car so is my 68 with a W36 stripe

Diego

How is it an excellent point? W-31s always had something signifying it was a cut above, whether it said Ram-Rod 350 or, starting in 1969, W-31.

So are we to assume the 1968 W-30 is not a W-Machine because it has no markings to suggest what engine it has?

jensenracing77

I was just making the point to the comment that it has to have a W badge to be a W car. The Rallye was not a performance car but did have the better suspension and labeled as a W-45.

And anyone that thinks a W-41 is not a W car has never driven one. I don't know for a fact but I believe it would have beat the Rallye 350 in a 1/4 mile run. I know for sure the W-41 would beat any 5.0 Mustang because I raced many of them and never lost.

Fun71

Just a bit? Was I too subtle?

joe_padavano

What "better suspension"? That's the same FE2 suspension available on other Cutlii that year. It's the same L74 motor you could get in any other Cutlass or Vista Cruiser. The W45 package was called an Appearance Package. It only included the paint, body colored bumpers, and tape stripes. The L74 engine, sport mirrors, sport steering wheel, FE2 suspension, dual exhaust, and W25 hood were all mandatory options that were available on any other 2dr Cutlass. You could have ordered exactly the same performance options on a Cutlass holiday coupe, along with the Sebring Yellow paint, and had a "Rallye 350" with chrome bumpers. Besides the painted bumpers, the one thing on the Rallye that you could not get on any other small block Cutlass that year was the cutout back bumper and trumpets.

jensenracing77

And W-27

joe_padavano

You could also get the W-27 axle on the small-block powered W-31. You could not get a cutout rear bumper on the W-31.

It's instructive to take a look at the special Rallye 350 order form:

https://books.google.com/books?id=y5...20form&f=false

jensenracing77

I am just being argumentative. I just figured if olds made it a W-45 car then it was a W car. I know it has nothing to make it perform better. So is the H/O W-45 a W machine?

firefrost gold

How many 70 w 30's were from the factory The Rallye out sold the w-31 more than two to one . http://www.hotrod.com/cars/featured/...duty-trans-am/

This SD 455 t/a displays that fire chicken quit well

Diego

Considering that the standard motor for half the year was a 2bbl. 455, hardly.