jensenracing77

I have several running 350 engines sitting around. I am thinking about setting one up outside my garage and running the radiator with a fan inside the garage and using it for heat while I work. I just want to take the chill off one day a week and wondering how long it would take to heat it up. I use close to a gallon per hour of kerosene and have to smell it. I am completly guesing around a gallon per hour on an 350 engine at 1200 rpm. Gas is much less and I would not have to smell it with the engine outside.

Any thoughts? Has anyone tried this? I know it has been done but not sure how well it works.

At work we have heaters for semi trailers that is this exact thing. They have a little diesel engine that only turns a fan inside the trailer and creats heat. The radiator is inside the trailer in front of the fan. We can heat a trailer to over 100 degrees if we want to.

coppercutlass

personally baseboard heaters are pretty cheap and keeping the floor warm is half the battle and the heat rises so that's 2 birds one stone. Im doing 4 base board heaters which will be hooked up to a thermostat while im in the garage . The ones im using 2 alone would heat my garage but 4 would probably keep it nice and warm and they would be on a lot less. I got 4 from a re sale store that sells stuff taken out from buildings and I picked 4 up for 150 bucks.

MDchanic

No reason why it shouldn't work, but if you make the engine do more work, it'll use more gas and make more heat.

Got any jobs you need done, like pumping water or pulling firewood up a hill?

- Eric

70cutty

I would think it would be pretty loud.

Koda

It has merit, but it is inefficient because you are not using any of the shaft power. I recommend you also use the shaft power by rigging a few alternators up and using 12V heaters as well. Or, make a gasoline burner heated boiler outside with a radiator inside and let it naturally circulate.

Leadfoot

Not quite true.

The heat output is directly related to the amount of fuel burned. Every drop of fuel burned, assuming 100% efficiency (i.e., complete combustion), is converted entirely to heat. It doesn't matter what's turning or not turning. Energy is energy, period. The only question is how much of that heat energy can be captured and directed to the desired space.

Note that no internal combustion engine is 100% efficient. A significant amount of the fuel never gets burned, and making the engine as efficient as possible would require setting it up to run extremely lean.

The best setup would be to have the entire engine indoors with only the exhaust pipe going outdoors... and a long enough exhaust pipe to radiate as much heat as possible indoors before the exhaust gases are released to outside. To be most efficient, the combustion air supplied to the engine would also be piped to the carb from outdoors.

FWIW, 1 gallon of gasoline has an energy content of roughly 125,000 BTU. A gallon of kerosene has 135,000 BTU.

Knowing your rate of fuel consumption and estimating the efficiency of fuel burning would allow you to pretty accurately estimate the number of BTU's generated by the running engine. The only question, then, is how to best capture those BTU's.

Also FWIW, a combustion engine is a pretty good radiator. A lot of heat is stored in all that steel and cast iron.

jensenracing77

Never thought of that. I have a 5000 watt generator with a bad engine. I could mount the generator to it and power much of my shop.

RetroRanger

I used to use a kero heater, works good but stinks like you say. I switched to a propane tank mounted heater adj 8-45k btus, it's quieter and no smell and really portable. It works good. They sell similar ones at Home Depot etc usually mr heater type brands.

oldzzy

I put in a small natural gas heater years ago, and it was one of the best things i ever did to the garage. I keep it set at 55-60, and if need be, it takes a couple mins to warm up to whatever temp you want it at. It doesn't cost me very much to run either, as my garage is very well insulated.

D. Yaros

It sounds like a whole lot of work, with not a whole lot of return for the effort?

Like another poster in this thread, I just turn the dial on the thermostat on my electric baseboard heaters. Works for me?

jeff in colorado

I considered a natural gas heater in my garage, very expensive up front. I guess it depends on where the piping has to come in from. Anyway, I had a 220 line ran and got an electric heater from Home Depot mounted in one corner of the ceiling. Before that I had purchased a potable propane heater that goes up to 80,000 btus which you can't run for very long before it uses up too much oxygen. So, I run the propane for a few minutes on high, turn it to low once the temp comes up to fifty five or so, and let the electric one take over. Option....

MDchanic

Nobody's mentioned Monitor heaters yet.
They run on kero, some on diesel (#2 heating oil) as well. They have big ones that draw off of external tanks and small ones with internal tanks.

93% efficient, no smell, no CO, and you can either set-and-forget 'em to keep the place at 55 or whatever, or just turn 'em on and off as needed.

They're expensive new, but used ones turn up constantly at flea markets and on Craigslist cheap, generally from people who just bought new houses with them and don't know what they are.

- Eric

hullinger

I like your idea of running the engine outside with the radiator inside. Here is a bus heater that is basically a small car sized radiator with blowers. Could work well and not overheat the engine since the engine would be outside in the cold to begin with.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-45-000-B...-/351167930205


One of my tricks when working on the car in the cold of winter is to drive the car a bit before parking it in the garage and using the radiant heat to keep me a bit warmer. Really works to keep my hands warm. Another thought is the supplemental heaters used in Corvairs, VW's and mid century domestics. Basically a gasoline fired heater. They are small and simple and depending on the space you need to heat, could work.

Chris

oldstata

I have a friend that has a pretty good size shop he ran heater duck up the wall installed a motor with a squaril cage to circulate the air and at the bottom had a thick metal that it ran into with a weed tourch off of a 100gal propane tank to heat his shop worked great just question the safety

coppercutlass

Jensenracing77 I have a squierl cage fan from a furnace unit. If you go with an idea like that we can trade for something lol. My car needs backseats lol.

CutlassDad

Any kind of forced air heater has to heat the whole space rather than things inside. An infrared heater, on the other hand, heats things in a space first. I use 6 250w brooder bulbs in my 28X20X10 foot (ceilings) garage. You can feel the warmth as soon as you walk in and turn on the lights.

oldzzy

That's what steered me away from an infrared heater. I had heard that the heater can dry out weatherstripping, and paint over time. I don't know if this is true or not, i read it on http://garagejournal.com/forum/ . I just didn't want to take the chance.

MDchanic

If you locate the engine inside the garage, and run the exhaust pipe along the baseboard of at least one wall before it exits, and paint all of it flat black, you will get some radiant heating from the engine and the pipe pretty quickly, as well as the convective heating from what the fan blows through the radiator.

Remember that the mechanical efficiency (energy losses in all forms other than mechanical output, including unburnt fuel and heat losses) of an internal combustion sucks, while the heat-production efficiency is not bad, especially if you keep the mixture lean, so, if what you're looking for is heat rather than movement, it's actually reasonably efficient (though not as efficient as a modern computer-controlled kerosene or oil heater, or as electric heating, which is essentially 100% efficient [though the electricity itself is more expensive]).

- Eric

jensenracing77

The thing I like about this idea is the fact I will have almost no money in it and maybe zero money in it. I even have used antifreeze I would use. When I install a quality heater it is likely going to be a propane tube heater like this.

Paladin31

Locating the engine inside the space would require you duct the combustion air from outside the garage or you will pull the building into a negative pressure & you will suck air in from the path of least resistance...under doors etc just adding to your heating load.
Another option would be to install an old style belt drive blower (from an old style furnace) and place your radiator in front of it, fabricate suitable shrouding etc. With the belt drive you can play with sheaves (pulley) changes to achieve blower wheel shaftspeed/airflow velocity that won't chill you, but will move adequate air to heat , and keep engine from overheating.

Brett

MDchanic

Dryer hose from a hole in the wall to the snorkel, just like they did on the late-'70s cars. Easy.

- Eric

jensenracing77

I guess I could just hook up tubes to my cars exhaust and run it.

ziff396

I just installed a pellet stove a few years back after going between kerosene and propane. Looked at the propane fired tube units, and the cost along with propane use is high. Works great and causes no condensation when starting from cold like kerosene and propane bullet type heaters. If it's really cold, I just start it the night before on low to help pre heat the concrete. 70 in no time. I did insulate the garage at the same time. One 40# bag @ now $4.99 lasts 1/ 8-10 hour day. Paid only $400.00 for the stove with the chimney setup. Used as a demo, but like new.

MDchanic

Sure. Just make sure the exhaust points outside and not the other way around, unless your name is Karl Brandt.

- Eric

oldzzy

4.99 for a day? That seems expensive if your in the garage a lot. I think it cost me $1000. for the gas heater and the install, and i don't even notice much difference on my gas bill per month. I figure it costs me $7-10. a month to run.

Jerry the wrench

What about a small engine like a 3 banger out of a Geo Metro? 2.0 liters vs. 5.7.

Sampson

Bottom line it comes down to btu per hr and cost of fuel per hour. Gasoline is not a cheap fuel and there will be inefficiencies lost converting the combustion process to usable heat via a radiator or exhaust manifold. Propane is cheap! It is hard to beat one of these. I use this in the winter and the heat is instant. A tank of propane lasts me forever!
http://t.homedepot.com/p/Dyna-Glo-40...0DG/203534107/

steverw

When I lived in Lubbock, Tx I installed new heat and a/c in the house and installed one of the old heat units in the garage. I was a large 2 car garage, I built a duct with duct board. It would easily heat the garage toasty warm very quickly, than i could turn down the thermostat some and be very comfortable, I did have to tie into the gas line but I did it myself with correct fittings and black pipe into the garage. Very little expense, worked great. You should be able to find a good used central heat unit from most heating and cooling shops, you can also change the jets and the gas valve to propane if you need. I did that in my shop in Lubbock also with an indoor heat unit, put it on a furniture dolly, bought a 25 foot rubber gas line so I could roll it around the shop where i needed it most.

oldcutlass

You might consider looking into a used self contained mobile home unit. Not real expensive, very easy to install.

MDchanic

Exactly.

The Gummint has an estimate for this (which will vary based on the prices of the moment).

For a million BTUs:
#2 Oil: $29
Natural Gas: $10
Electricity: $35
Propane: $32
Wood: $9
Pellets: $15
Corn: $14
Kerosene: $33
Gasoline: $26
Coal: $8

- Eric

Sampson

Interesting stuff Eric. I back up a bit. I would have thought propane much cheaper than that. I am still pretty confident gasoline is off the chart though. And then you have to look at the efficiency of how you are converting it to heat or burning it. My guess is it is like a fire place burning wood. Most of the heat goes out the chimney. In this care most of the heat will go straight out the exhaust. No?

MDchanic

Gasoline has 113,738 BTUs per gallon. That means 1,000,000 BTUs in 8.79 gallons, so, at the current price of about $3.00 a gallon, gasoline costs $26.37 for a million BTUs.

I'll update my previous post.

- Eric

MDchanic

That's why you want to run a good length of exhaust pipe along the baseboard before sending it outdoors.

- Eric

Sampson

Soooooo why don't we have gasoline furnaces? Which would be cheaper than kerosene, # 2 fuel, or diesel, or electricity? And you would not need all the mechanicals of an internal combustion engine? Not arguing, just trying to understand!

Leadfoot

No, not necessarily. As I mentioned in my previous comment, and as Eric has pointed out, ideally you want to radiate as much heat from the exhaust pipe as possible before the gases are disposed of outside. The engine then becomes a large radiant heater. If the gases are cool when they leave the exhaust pipe, you've taken all the heat from them that you can.

I would not, however, run the exhaust pipe along the baseboard. It needs to be in free air, preferably with air moving across it, and preferably with heat-radiating fins around it.

Note that cooling those exhaust gases will create condensation in the exhaust pipe, and it will be some nasty stuff. You do not want that condensate dripping on anything important.

Also, not all of the heat produced is in the exhaust pipe. Since the engine is designed to do work by rotating an output shaft, some of the heat produced is from friction. This heat is contained within the steel and iron and when it gets too great, the cooling system removes it via the radiator.

JP

Leadfoot

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, gasoline has a little lower BTU content than the other liquid fuels mentioned. From the gas pump, it also has a bunch of additives that serve no purpose in use as a heating fuel. Beyond that, it's more dangerous to deliver than natural gas or LP, and our installed delivery infrastructure is designed to handle gas, not liquids. You would need a large gasoline storage tank somewhere near your gasoline furnace. Ultimately, older homes used #2 fuel oil furnaces this way because it was slightly safer and more efficient than other liquid fuels. It was (probably still is in many areas) delivered by truck, similar to LP.

But no, you do not need any of the mechanical internals of the engine if you just want to create heat. In this case, the mechanical internals only serve to keep the fuel burning. As others have suggested though, one could certainly power a big generator with the engine. It will create the same amount of heat either way.

And I have used gasoline as a heating fuel. I have a portable salamander-type heater that burns kerosene, diesel fuel, gasoline, & E85. Whatever fuel (or mixture) you put in the tank, it will burn.

nsnarsk65cutlass

Using exhaust pipe for heat is good in theory but CO is a killer.

Leadfoot

Yes, that's a good reminder.

And that's why the exhaust needs to terminate outdoors, as stated multiple times in this discussion.

Hopefully it's obvious, if anybody should actually undertake this, that the exhaust piping must be absolutely leakproof. This would definitely not be a place to be careless or cavalier.

MDchanic

As leadfoot mentioned, it's all in the delivery, storage, and history.

Most importantly, your insurance company does NOT want you sitting on top of a 275 gallon tank of gasoline in your basement.
If something went wrong, as the wise man said, "It would be bad."

Next, the denser the fuel, the more energy per volume.
Gasoline is quite light and volatile, kerosene less, and #2 oil even less.
This means that you can fit more energy into the tank in the big truck that delivers the oil, and into the tank in your basement, which makes the oil company happy because it's cheaper to make fewer trips, and makes you happy, because you need fewer fills in a season.
Ideally, we would all be burning #6 oil, as they do in many commercial buildings and ships, but #6 oil is very thick, and has to be heated before it will flow, which is just too much complexity for the average house.

And did I mention safety?
Remember, puddle of gasoline + spark = WHOOOOMP!!! while
puddle of diesel + spark = nothing at all.
This is also one of the reasons (aside from density, the simplicity of no-spark engines, and logistical simplification) why diesel has been standardized as the recommended fuel for the military and for US EMS and Fire (the police, unwisely, still use gasoline, but in the event of a true national emergency, where anything that moved had to run off of military fuel stockpiles, they'd be walking the beat sooner or later).

Finally, there is history.
Fuel oil was introduced as a replacement for coal. It's not quite as dense, so you couldn't get a whole season's supply in a single delivery, but it is SO much easier to deliver a liquid than a solid, that a few more deliveries was not a problem. You could put the fuel tank right in the coal bunker, and convert the coal furnace to oil without a problem, and suddenly have the joy of a thermostat on the wall, and the ability to leave the house for a few days and not worry about the pipes freezing.
Oil was chosen over gasoline for the reasons listed above, and also because it is a less-refined product, with a less critical manufacturing process and fewer specifications, which at the time was cheaper than gasoline.
Since the 1980s, the price of oil has gone up more than that of gasoline, and stayed there, but back in the day, those nuts who owned diesel Mercedes were beating the system by buying diesel, which contains more energy (gives you more MPG), for 90¢ a gallon when everyone else was paying $1.10 for regular.

Make sense?

- Eric

BlackGold

You forgot Nuclear.