Roan

Hi guys,
I need some help as my dad and I are at our wits end. My '67 Cutlass with 330 4bbl was running just fine a few weeks ago until one day at a stop light I noticed it missing very slightly; I didn't think much of it at the time but the next day, on my way home from work, the car would barely accelerate to 40mph and was coughing and jumping severely as I tried to accelerate to the light; I almost didn't make it onto the highway as every time I pressed on the gas pedal the problem got worse, and was really underpowered and even backfired once or twice. Eventually it caught and I was able to drive back to my parents place as usual. I had my dad come out to the car to ride with me back home to my place and it did fine until we were almost there, and she died idling through the parking lot. After about 5 minutes I almost couldn't get it started again and it died again halfway back to my parents house. I sat there on the side of the road trying to start the car and after about 10 minutes or so, finally she fired right up and ran fine the rest of the way back. That's the last time I drove the car.

Fast forward to today; so far we've replaced the rusted out gas tank, the sending unit, flushed out the fuel lines, replaced both fuel filters, installed a new fuel pump and carburetor, replaced the plugs, and the coil, as well as the distributor cap, the rotor, the points, and it still won't start! It just sputters and coughs and acts like it wants to run, but cant'. It did fire up one time yesterday before the new plugs and coil were installed, ran perfectly with maybe a very minor miss until I shut it off, and now it's back to sputtering and coughing but, still won't start. We're really out of ideas unless it's an issue with the timing chain. At this point any ideas are welcome and greatly appreciated!

Thanks everyone,
- S

rcrac3r

Does it start ok cold & then after its warmed up it starts spluttering? Were the plug wires also replaced?

Roan

Unfortunately no, it just won't start at all anymore; cold or otherwise. I replaced the plug wires about four months ago so I don't think that they'd be bad this soon but, who knows. My mechanic did say about a month and a half ago that he was getting shocked by them so there's something wrong there. Could they go bad this quickly? I made sure to route them so that they don't touch the manifold or rocker covers as much as I could but couldn't keep them off completely.

DLaz70OLDS98

What's the timing chain like? I wonder if it jumped.

Roan

We haven't been able to open it up to check that yet; a mechanic friend of ours said we can take the distributor cap off and watch the rotor while cranking it to see if it moves smoothly or kind of jumps as a way to see if it might be an issue with the timing chain. I'm going to give it a shot when I get home tonight.

oldcutlass

When you installed the new points, did you set the dwell/timing? The car should only have 1 fuel filter, if your using an inline then take the one out of the carb. Is the rotor pointing to the #1 spark plug wire when the engine is set to the compression stroke of the #1 cylinder? Do you have spark, is there 2 sold streams of fuel spraying into the carb when looking down into it with the engine off and operating the throttle?

tru-blue 442

Replace the condenser.

MDchanic

Your description of the initial problem sounds more like a bad coil or condenser than anything else.
Yes, there are a huge number of potential problems that could potentially sound more or less like this, but coil and condenser are highest on the list in my opinion.

I would go over the ignition system again, as stated / implied above: Recheck points gap, timing, consider replacing condenser again, recheck order of wires very carefully, replace wires if they shock you (there's lots of crap on the market these days that's no good from Day #1).

Overall, your symptoms, to me at least, point much more strongly toward electricity than to gas, so I would hazard to say that you put a lot of work into things you didn't need to change, and that you may have screwed up something on the fuel side, thus creating an entirely new second problem.

- Eric

joe_padavano

This has happened to me on two different Oldsmobiles, and unfortunately both times it was the timing chain. It's very easy to check the timing even if the engine won't start. as the timing light will work while the engine is cranking (assuming you are getting spark). If anything was changed when points were changed, then you may or may not be able to tell if the timing has slipped, however. Obviously if the timing mark has moved significantly, you know what the problem is before you even pull the front cover.

Roan

Thanks for the ideas everyone, I just replaced the coil on Sunday so I'll do the condenser and plug wires next just so I can rule them out, although I didn't get real cheapo wires I didn't think, they were just CarQuest brand. The timing/dwell was set when the new points were installed a few months ago. I don't think it's an issue with fuel delivery since it did run once, and the carburetor is getting plenty of gas. We tried checking to see if the rotor was pointing to the #1 plug wire when the #1 cylinder was on the compression stroke and, we couldn't tell for sure (not the most experienced in this area) but, the rotor seemed to not be pointing anywhere near the #1 wire. We have a friend coming over tonight to verify this so, I'll let you all know what we find.

Charlie Jones

A quick way to check the timing chain;
Remove the dist.cap . Turn the crankshaft with a breaker bar & socket until the timing mark reaches 'O' . Have someone watch the dist. rotor, turn the crankshaft backwards slowly and note the number of degrees where the rotor starts to move. 4 degrees or less, OK. 6 degrees, will run, but chain is worn. 8 degrees or more and it's "out to lunch".

rjohnson442

I've got brand new plug wires that were junk to begin with on more then one occasion. Most have a year warranty I'd replace them if you know they are already arcing.
Timing is another issue you'll have to confirm to be correct to narrow down the problem but I'm leaning towards an electrical problem as well.

Roan

Thanks Charlie, that sounds like a great way to check for play in the timing chain, I'll definitely have to remember that one!

We went over the car again last night with a friend of ours who is the service manager at the shop where I usually take the car. After putting the old points back in, unplugging the #1 plug wire, and moving the distributor around a bit he was able to get it to run for about ten minutes before it died abruptly. He said the spark is very intermittent and agrees with most of you guys in that he thinks it's most likely and electrical problem. Gonna pick up a set of plug wires this evening on my way home, swap them out and go from there. Haven't ruled out an issue with the timing chain completely but, it's seeming less, and less likely.

garys 68&72

Kind of a long shot, but if it is intermittent spark, are you running a tach? I had an aftermarket tach that was failing and would ground the coil. Disconnected the tach wire, ran perfect.

MDchanic

Happened to me once, too. $2 flea market tach in an FE F_rd. Fortunately for me the tach needle had been behaving a bit strangely, so I disconnected it first, before getting into a lot of other stuff.

- Eric

CutlassDad

X2 MDChanic and garys...my son and I spent 2 summers chasing an ignition cutout problem that stopped with the removal of a failing aftermarket tach.

Roan

Hmm, nope I don't have a tach in the car. I was thinking of getting one but haven't yet. I don't know that it makes any difference but, since you guys mentioned gauges screwing with things; the speedometer went out maybe a month before the current problem cropped up. I got it fixed and it's in working order again. That wouldn't have anything to do with it though, right?
Please excuse my ignorance, I'm not the most savvy when it comes to electrical problems.

Also, I got the plug wires swapped out last night....no change. Getting pretty frustrated at this point.

steverw

Also check to be sure the wire coming out of the distributor is not grounding out on metal anywhere. The wire inside the dist is not grounded out, The condenser wire is not grounded out. Check all wiring to and from distributor, coil, ignition for breaks, possibly only making intermittant connection. Check the wires on the starter that their not broken and only making intermittant connection/ yellow wire. Sometimes a wire can break on the inside and still make intermittant connection while the insulation is intact, or it its been spliced be sure all connections are good.

tru-blue 442

Roan

Hey Tru-Blue, I wasn't ignoring you; I just thought it would be simpler to try the plug wires first. I'll try the condenser next.

oldcutlass

The plug wires would not keep it from running unless it was the coil wire.

cjsdad

Your speedo is mechanical and would not cause a problem with the electrical system, but if you had the work done at a shop they may have removed the ignition switch to make the repair. That could cause an electrical problem. Check the voltage at the coil with the switch in the start and run position. If it is less than the battery voltage during the start position test, check the connections on the ignition switch. If they are good, it is possible that the switch itself is failing. It could even be a complete coincidence if the switch is failing at this time.

Railguy

I can't see it being the timing chain when it came and went at the beginning.When those things go they go all at once .I've had condensers do that though.One thing for sure though it's not a loose gas cap or your set belt isn't fastened or something like that.
railguy

gs72

I agree with Joe. The timing chain integrity has not been verified to my way of thinking. When diagnosing any drivability problem you ALWAYS check for base engine problems before moving into fuel or ign. Systems. Chains can jump a tooth and after messing with the timing (which has obviously taken place) it will start and sort of run (which has also obviously taken place). After shutting it off the chain jumps another tooth and then you have a total crank no start. I know the timing being the problem is a bitter pill to swallow. However you cannot repair around it if it is the problem.

cherokeepeople

the backfiring points me to the condenser also.one other thing,but i don't know if olds used it.but on my chevy i had an issue similar to this.it would start the run like crap,backfire die etc.in the distributor on the chevy anyway there is a wire that grounds the point plate,it is a special woven wire to take the constant flexing.on mine it was flexed to the point of being broke.when it was started it was connected but as soon as the vac advance kicked it it pulled it apart and then the problems started.

rocketraider

My money says condenser or distributor cap. Also good point on ignition switch, since pretty sure it has to come out of a 67 A-body to get the speedometer out.

I've had one coil to fail with similar symptoms but it misbehaved only after it got hot.

rroth01

Timing Chain....

JohnnyBs68S

Agreed, as they approach the point of jumping, things get loose, causing all sorts of problems. Another possibility that hasn't been mentioned yet is a bad distributor bearing, which could cause the dwell to vary alot across the cylinders, possibly getting narrow enough to cause a misfire in one or two cylinders.

brown7373

have you replaced the primary wire? Black wire that hooks the points to the negative on the coil. I had one on a 69 GTO fail. The wire strands were almost completely cut in two, with only the backside of the wire insulation holding it together, but it made very poor connection, and sometimes would totally shut off. But then, miraculously, it would run again and nothing seemed wrong. In 1972 it cost me 80 cents to replace.

Roan

Sorry I've been away for a while, I ended up having to take her to the shop to be worked on and, after running up a sizable bill, they figured out what the problem was: the original carburetor's float was stuck from all the rust pouring through it and was starving the engine of fuel, while the new carb was putting too much fuel into the engine and was essentially flooding the plugs. So, same symptoms, opposite cause. They recommended converting to HEI and, with the hotter spark from the new ignition system, she's back and running great.
The only problem that I've noticed now is that the throttle linkage that's located back by the firewall close to the master cylinder seems to just barely lock up when the pedal is gradually released but, when the gas is released quickly is usually doesn't stick. Any recommendations on what I can do to remedy this? I've already tried spraying it down with WD-40 and that didn't do a thing.

oldcutlass

Put an after market return spring to the throttle linkage on the carb to assist.

Roan

Thanks for the tip Eric, I'll give that a try.