67442nut

Esteemed!!!?????
Damn!!! Never knew I was esteemed!
I don't feel esteemed!
Sometimes I feel "steamed".
(Thanks, Diego.)

steverw

If you took the car to a GM dealership bodyshop, back when body shells were available would they transfer the tags to the new body? Im asking because i have no idea. I personally dont see a problem with what hes doing, especially if he plans to keep the car or if he reveals the change to any potential buyer in the future. The bodys are the same as far as i know, just depends on how they left the factory back then. Who knows maybe one day some build sheets got mixed up and a Cutlass actually got built as a 442. Possible? maybe maybe not, would they just swop build sheets? Same body? Different tags and options.

TK-65

Does anyone know where the VIN tag is on a mid 60s Ford or a 70s Ford truck? Its on the door. If that door needs to be replaced due to rust or accident, do you swap the VIN from the old door to the new door? Is that now a rebodied car? Does the "pedigree" get lost when the door gets replaced and you put the old tag on it?

Or if that door is perfectly rust free and the car is not, can you move the door to better shell? You never removed the tag, its still on the original door. So is the now rust free car the same car? Must be tag never came off.

67442nut

Hypotheticals can be conjured ad infinitum.
In the end, unless what we are discussing IS illegal, it seems to be a matter of what the individual considers acceptable or unacceptable.

67442nut

Allan,
The V.I.N. tag on a '67 is stainless steel, not aluminum like the trim/data tag.
Although it is discolored from the heat of the fire, the V.I.N. tag survived the fire.
I will transfer it to the new body.
Don't know if there's some way of restoring it to original, shiny condition.
Thought I might just leave it as-is as a souvenir/reminder of the fire,
kinda like the stuff in the 911 museum.

Diego

So what purpose does changing the data plate serve you?

It's my understanding that there are codes on the data plate that will show the 4-4-2 option, correct? Like 5L or something, right?

So wouldn't you attaching a tag that shows your new, rebodied car to be a 4-4-2 when it didn't come from the factory that way?

What about if it was an ugly color and you changed the data plate to reflect something more desirable - is that ethical at all?

And what happens when you sell the car and it gets into the hands of someone who sells it as an authentic 4-4-2?

I can think of only two reasons why someone would change a data plate: greed, or lacking an understanding of its implications. I don't think you're in the former category, but there's simply no good reason to change a tag.

Jetstarjim

Ok, just strictly hypothetical. Let's say one takes his wife's nametag from the Speedy Mart, and puts on a much younger smokin' hot college chick. Should he tell anyone his wife has been "re-bodied", or should he just keep it his little secret?

67442nut

Diego,
I've tried my best to make it clear that the "clone" is a different car.
The car I plan to rebody is a "real", original 4-4-2.

67442nut

He could just tell everybody his wife had a major "makeover".

oldcutlass

Using the analology above...who cares.

66-3X2 442

He (Diego)doesn't understand the difference and never will.

Jetstarjim

I guess I'm confused as well. I thought the 4-4-2 burnt up in a fire?

RandyS

Like this?

Hairy Olds

This was foretold buy a great site seer or something like that.

67442nut

I didn't forget that prediction.
Although I've actually enjoyed the exchange, now I'm just wondering if it will end AT ALL!

Charlie Jones

No, not all of them. Just the ones that put their old VIN tag on a different body.
This is a FEDERAL offense. The 1967 VIN plates were held on with a special rivit (sometimes called a rosette rivit). The bodies also had several hidden partial VIN's stamped on the body. The one that I can recall offhand was stamped in the firewall under the heater box. There are probably others.
My advice to you. Would be to take your replacement body and put it on your frame, keeping your VIN tag intact. And register the car with that number.
Did the replacement body come with a frame? If so I would use that frame also. When it comes to "numbers matching" the feds can be real sticklers.

66-3X2 442

If you move a vin tag from one body to another,it's not an automatic violation of the law. Technically if you move a vin tag,yes it's illegal but intent has something to do with it. If you have both tags to prove neither were stolen or have any issues,you are not going to have problems. There are not any vin # stampings on body shells 67 and older,not that I'm aware of. 68 and newer do have vin #'s on some places of the body shell I have been told. This idea of moving vin tags from one body to another is wrong,is wrong. If you move a vin tag and you have documentation and proof of the intent,you will not have any problems. Rebodying a known car is acceptable-period. Again,a rebodied car is not a clone.

oldcutlass

I believe each state has a process to do this legally under these circumstances and a call to a local DMV office will get the answer. I know in Texas there is a process.

TK-65

Again, read my post about Fords. If this was really the case every vender thats makes doors would be shut down by the fed. Before these cars were worth anything, this happened all the time. People needed these cars to get to work. If someone tagged your door, the body shop, or god forbid the DEALER would replace it and move the vin to the new body panel. Ill bet there are a ton of cars out there that this happened to.

Know how easy it is to remove a early Corvette tag? 30 seconds with a Philips head screwdriver. A huge selling point of Vettes are "no hit bodies" Which means a lot of them got wrecked and fixed.

So who is to say what is really real? Someone that has a "undisputed" car may own something that was wrecked and vin'ed back in the 70s. Before money and CARFAX came along.

67442nut

The stripped-down body shell of the 4-4-2 was destroyed in the fire.
That's why it is being rebodied.
Much of the rest of the car was safe at another location.
I'll reuse as much of the stuff that was on the original body as I can.

Allan R

Ed, how about posting a picture of the car that was destroyed. I mean before it was in the fire. Curious to see what it looked like now.

Diego

Are you speaking for me again?

So please explain to the rest of the folks out there in Oldsmobileland why I think changing the data plate of a car is akin to fraud.

67442nut

Jujst did some checking.
Charlie Jones may be at least partially correct.
It appears that the states, not the Feds, actually control the legality of rebodied cars.
In fact I checked here in West Virginia, the law is pretty much the same as Oklahoma.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=195180
The links below look like opinions of a guy trying to sell legal services,
but may have some merit. Intent DOES seem to be a considerastion:
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?tag=rebody-fraud
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?tag=rebody

66-3X2 442

You live in a Mary Poppins world,how can I explain anything to you? When you restore your first car and fully understand what is involved,your opinion may be a little more valuable. If cowl tags are illegal,how are the vendors making them not making license plates.

pogo69

I agree 100%

Charlie Jones

Thank you for the vote of confidence Ed. I've been down this road before so I DO know what I'm talking about.
My advice to you still stands. Keep the present tags (at least the VIN) on the replacement body. And, if possible, use the matching frame. This way no one can accuse you of misrepresentation or fraud.
You may want to keep the car forever,however, you are not going to live forever. And the car may very well outlast you. Then your heirs will probably sell the car and if it has tainted identification things could really get complicated for them. Especially if it is sold to someone in another state.
The FBI can be a real PITA when it comes to vehicle identification. Just ask Mr. Backeast. It seems to me that a number of years ago he was "shook down" by the FBI and they nearly closed his operation down. That is why he is so careful to certify a car as genuine before making a tag.

Diego

You still haven't explained why I think changing the data plate is akin to fraud. Need a spoonful of sugar?

IMHO, if it's not clear yet, Ed should leave the data plate alone. Or, for $#!+s and giggles, he should create a new one to match his old one, but have something typed in that shows it to be a homage to his burnt car.

66-3X2 442

If you can't read for comprehension,I'll say it one more time. If changing/making cowl tags were illegal=fraud,why are the vendors still making them and selling them? Ed is rebuilding/rebodying a real car and it's his call in what to do.

oldcutlass

Theres no reason to keep reiterating and arguing an opinion. It's been given and I'm sure Ed will take it under advisement. It's really his decision to do what he feels is right with his car.

Diego

It IS possible to discuss this philosophical topic in a civil manner. if you are a mod, you should end it here.

67442nut

Although this thread has gone off on a tangent from my original question,
the tangent, rebodying, is something I've been pondering for a while.
I've tried to digest all the opinions and other info that have been presented in this thread on the subject of rebodying this car.
It appears that, at least in West Virginia, rebodying and reusing the original V.I.N. tag technically is illegal.
However, the illegality is due to the potential for abuse, mainly for profit and intent is apparently given consideration.
Since it is of value to me to keep the original title and V.I.N. tag with the car and since I have
the titles and V.I.N tags for both the original car AND the donor car which proves there was no ill intent,
I think I'll take my chances and do as I had originally planned.
If, on the off chance that what I've done comes to light with the powers that be, I'll plead my case and live with the outcome.
My son and/or daughter will end up with the car.
I won't pretend their attachment to it is the same as mine, but, they DO have an attachment.
If they DO end up selling the car, I'm sure they will honor my wish to make it's history clear to the new owner.
In fact if, at some point the car is sold, the legal procedure could then be done before putting it up for sale.
This would prevent any future owner(s) from any "underhandedness".
They could blame it all on me since I'll be either dead and gone or a senile old fool sitting around
slobbering all over myself not giving a damn what's going on.

oldcutlass

Then lets be civil about it.

67442nut

As difficult as that is sometimes, I still try.
I've been sitting here switching between the World Series and 2 or 3 football games while composing my last reply to this thread.
That helps me to keep from getting too intense.

66-3X2 442

Ed,as I said it's your call on what to do. When OCA advisers who document these cars say that doing a rebody to save a car is acceptable,that's good enough for me. As I previously posted,a person could buy a replacement body shell from GMPD to save a car. Why was it acceptable then and not now? It appears that some think this is a black and white issue and any variation from the original body shell is wrong. There has been 66 W-30 cars that have been rebodied to save them. I'm of the opinion that whatever it takes to save any car is acceptable. What I am against is cloning cars for profit. If a guy wants to build a Yenko for himself,more power to him. This has been an ongoing debate for years and it won't end here but I'm done this go around.

Koda

If Ed were running a bodyshop and someone brought in a burned 442 needing a new body, putting the original vin tag and a replacement, correct cowl tag on a donor body, with all other pieces of the original car also re-installed, it would be legal. So is what he wants to do because the final vin was and is a 442.

Diego

What evidence do you have for this?


He's getting a Cutlass Supreme body and creating a 4-4-2 from it.

ent72olds

It's really not much different then when someone replaces every rotted panel, including roof skin to restore a car.....happens in the MOPAR world all the time the way those cars rotted. If the story goes with the car in the future, then all is cool IMHO!

If I'm not mistaken, and missed this earlier in the thread, the VIN doesn't give any evidence that the car is a 442 in '67. .......on another note, what if someone had broken into your garage, stole the cowl tag off your concours 442? Do you have the right to replace it with a repro? Or is the car now parts?

Diego

Really? A body panel carries the pedigree of a vehicle? Does a rear fender determine a car is a 4-4-2?

ent72olds

I don't understand your logic here?

Isn't a re body just a collection of all panels?

Diego

Fenders and such don't carry a car's pedigree, so changing a fender is a poor example to make a point.