dnmfranco

This thread initially started at Scott's W-30 restoration thread. We moved it here not to take away from Scott's thread.

The thread started from speculation regarding potential fraudulent parts. The questionable parts were 70 W -30 parts that included dist, carburetor and OW transmission. There was additional discussion on rears as well.

This was all evidenced by comparable pictures.
The pictures that were used to discriminate fore mentioned parts to legitimate parts will be moved here as well. These specific pictures will demonstrate the differences in fonts and depth of stamps from the fraudulent parts verse original parts.

It has become apparent that this is a growing problem in our hobby. What makes matters worse is these transactions initially took place here on Classic Olds, sad. It is inherently wrong and criminal, there is no difference passing a fake diamond on then a real one such is the same with high end parts.

Our goal is educational and not a witch hunts. We want members such as me to be able to discriminate real from fraud.In this short time I have learned a lot from nothing, I too potentially was at the hands of fraud and waiting for pictures to determine that. This is why I am doing this in conjunction with Sam and Stick31 (Steve Minore). We want to help members, these two guys have incredible amount of knowledge regarding these parts. Steve is currently writing an authentication book on 70 w-30 and 31’s. They also have access to modern day equipment to magnify potential fraudulent parts. To reiterate I have already learned what to look for and so can you if you
don’t already.

If you feel your past parts or present day purchases are fraudulent please post pictures here and they can help. It doesn’t have to be the expensive 70’s W parts – any parts you want verified. Like them as well, I hate seeing people getting ripped off.

Hope this helps someone

Sincerely Dean

StickW31

Thank you Dean, well said. Yes I would be happy to help anywhere i can.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling

STeve

dnmfranco

[QUOTE=StickW31;694959]Thank you Dean, well said. Yes I would be happy to help anywhere i can.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling

Ty Steve hopefully if anything this conduct will stop on here at least Dean

Octania

I have a nice '1933 [?] distributor that was sold to me as real via epay. I got to keep it.
The OD of the housing is considerably smaller than the 20-30 untouched samples I had handy to measure for comparison. They machined the OD to get rid of the original #. It's a good example of a fake stamped part.

I have collected many photos off ePay ads &c of obvious and not so obvious carb number restamps also. And, of carb numbers that should be legit.

Any intake or head I have modified to a different casting ID can be discerned readily with a close inspection. And, of course, I don't BS about what the casting is or used to be.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150772154268...84.m1555.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150838866574...84.m1555.l2649

72xw30

Examples of restamped parts:

d80ca08b8bf60fae7bfdc65e6e3655b3_zps7ca9e56d.jpg
cfae733a55191ac79848d4d71109fdd7_zpsc47c80c0.jpg
b836103b556ff4566d55a28ca55577b0_zpsdb150ff6.jpg
9dd9db5210c9c3a0b6d160ea63028e60_zpsf93c6bae.jpg
01223e5ff3bb1c7a7678ce01dd388dad_zps194efffa.jpg
c1ea001f313ff74ba5fc72a4678dd102_zps34f53807.jpg
50ce92cc67ef336a655a91c26ad1829a_zpsb5f4d3a0.jpg
f07bd6bdd7aedc12b91ff844f4f0aa11_zps934aa65c.jpg

This one even had the BIG square block at the bottom of the housing which was used in later years! lol



cd46b9f72a0b4e07b6aab3a6685b5188_zps0a5d01de.jpg



More to come........

dnmfranco

dnmfranco

Sam nice pics to reference - dean

dnmfranco

Chris everyone here knows you are on the up and up - Dean

Boilerz25

Dean and others,

I was wondering if you can elaborate what to look for with numbered parts. Specifically you mentioned the depth and fonts size. Is there a baseline to use? The distributors for example are hard to tell the difference.

Appreciate you looking out for the groups.

Thanks
Sean

dnmfranco

Sean I am new at this as well but certain digits when re-stamped clearly indicate this.
For instance 4 and the 9s are very difficult to replicate exactly.
The others can expand more in depth than I can.

One other flaw I learned is that some re-stamps go too far into the metal for instance on the rears you can see the codes are too deep as opposed to originals.
Dean

dnmfranco

What's even more sad is that its happening here among fellow members.
Basically members being taken advantage of due to lack of knowledge and just good ole naïve.

Its plain and simple - criminal , worst off is the fact that these people on here that are doing this can act like buddies with the people who they just ripped off. SAD

11971four4two

The frame has VIN numbers too
a manual transmission car should not
be changed to TH400 with a tag

dnmfranco

thanks for that Brian

pogo69

I believe the concern is good for the hobby and as i have said any parts cloned/forged/altered even under the best of intentions are a problem down the road simply for the fact that some may say '' for sale ...original w-30.... and not know where that part came from

dnmfranco

Morgan, I agree with that completely, someone sells it off as real then.......

Whats the remedy if good intentions are there? identify these altered parts somewhere within where they cant be ever passed on as original?

But based on what I am exposed w regards to this thread - there were no good intentions here - greed/money

pogo69

Its not going to get better I think as long as an asking price of 3/4 of a million bucks for a 70 oldsmobile is put out there the parts that make that car worth that much are going be forged and as time goes by the forging will identical (skills and technology improved) then everyone will be driving an original and prices will drop...best hope is to know whom your buying orig. parts from and hope for the best. If you have an orig part to compare it to that would surely help but then why would you need to buy one, it really is buyer beware but it shouldnt be that way, i think there are more fakes than people realize

72xw30

I agree that there are lots if fakes out there that people don't realize.

Post pictures people - very easy to tell !

Sam

dnmfranco

well nothing against the 70 people but these part prices are getting out of control in my opinion.

Every time I go on eBay I see a new 70 W-30 for sale ????

True do your home work and know the source , yes it should not be this way

classicmuscle442

trying to learn, trans is easy to see difference, dissy are little tougher- appears to be deeper stamp than original, carb do not see problem, are the numbers to straight or perfect?

dnmfranco

lol same here funny u say trans was easy to me.
dist look at the 9, and yes sometimes deeper from what I have been told
carb look at 4 and 9

classicmuscle442

Ok, see the original 9 is almost an 8, but the 4? I see it now, the 4 crosses closer to bottom.

72xw30

Look at the ghost character under the K and under the 8.

This one needs to be sent to the testing facility.

Sam

costpenn

Let me know if can be of any help. I got burned really badly on a carb I bought off ebay for the 72 so I've been super vigilant on the stuff for the 70 W30 I am doing.

72xw30

The testing facilty has received some distributors in the past that we have studied in depth.
The report below is from 1 of the 036 distributors we had sent to us for an authentication. It was a fake, later 3 other distributors were sent from the same party for testing. You guessed it - they were restamps too!!!

April 10, 2012

"I did receive the 1112036. Based on my visual assessment & some preliminary measurements I have taken I have determined it is a re-stamp (fake/not authentic, garbage, etc).

I have other Olds distributors that are pristine untouched condition from the factory from the same time period. One is an 1112034 (w-30
auto) & the others are 1112033 that I picked up over the years.

The 033's are a dime a dozen so there never would be a reason to fake any of these. They are consistent from one to another in size where the cap sits unlike all the 036's I have examined over the years.

On the restamps, a slick machinist machines down the area where the numbers are stamped to remove the original numbers. It is done such that a taper is introduced into the surface so as to not remove entirely the step where the cap guides on to the diameter that centralizes the cap. It is done in a very slick fashion. Then the numbers of the rare #'s are stamped.

I have seen this feeble attempt to get big money for a fake distributor time & time again. The immediate telltale is the difference in the lay of the surface texture. GM milled the flange diameter which leaves a distinctive surface finish, fingerprint if you will.

The taper machining used to remove the old numbers does not match the surface texture of the GM machining process, this difference is the visual that should get one asking questions right away about authenticity.

I have also seen others that glass bead the surface to make the texture look all the same. However the measurements cannot be hidden. They claim the distributor has been refurbished. Upon close examination it is easy to see the difference in font, font depth & spacing. Result:
Fake, garbage, etc.

Most guys would not know any better for lack of machining knowledge, optical magnifying viewers & measuring instruments. I own a machine shop that makes parts for the Hubble, Space Station, satellites, Mars Rovers, military & commercial aircraft & missiles. I am not the guy to try to fool. The scoundrels cannot get this garbage past me.

I will be returning this fake I received. I hope the guy did not get taken in himself not knowing he has a fake. If he does, well then he would be what I call a scoundrel!!!



A lot more of these "rare" W30 fake parts have been sold since,

more to come...

Sam

dnmfranco

Wow, good for you Sam
that's crazy wonder who this guy is
Dean

72xw30

Restamped Distributor Test

Which one of the following are restamped?

#1
stamping_zps7f601600.png

#2
stamping2_zpsbd5a83d6.png

#3
stamping3_zpsed27ac44.png

Tons more to come.....

Sam

dnmfranco

I will guess all

dnmfranco

wait 1 and 3 are legit other fake
the surface difference wow

brandon reynolds

1 and 3 are fake 2 is real is my guess.

Brandon Reynolds

Rocketguy

Great thread, thank you to all contributing.

My suggestion is that for each fake shown it should have an original correct along side it for comparison.

We all definitely want to know. I have to agree that it took a slick machinist to turn a housing eccentric and then restamp it.

I would take pleasure in exposing these thieves.

Octania

Good start
"Exactly how to tell" would be good info, maybe with lines pointing out what details to look for, on samples. Some carbs were so poorly redone that they left the obvious step where the milling cutter had traveled.

Oh, and unless it's a test, it might be a good idea, before putting such photos on the internet, to go to say Pain[t] with the pic and lay "RESTAMP" or "GENUINE" as befits. Otherwise, it's too easy for such photos to later be thought of as proof contrary to the truth.

When examining the fake distributor I got, for comparison I measured the smaller diameter "cap seat" at the top of 37 samples of presumed original take-offs- no rare numbers, and most have been mine since removed from the factory engine. There were 21 samples of fully-machined housings that supplied data for the OD of the lower machined portion also.

The distributor OD statistics are as follows [inches]:

______cap seat___Body OD___Difference
MIN_____3.790___3.805___0.010
MAX_____3.800___3.834___0.030
AVG_____3.795___3.816___0.020
ST DEV__0.003___0.007___0.005

Basically, it says that the distributor cap seat is a carefully machined surface, with a standard deviation of three thousandths of an inch on a base measurement averaging 3.795". The spread of the data from smallest to largest varies only 0.010".

The body of the distributor, below the cap seat, was not machined in earlier years [dividing line evidently mid-1969 going by dates of cast vs machined parts], so early 1969 and earlier housings should have the same as-cast texture as the rest of the distributor. Those would be very hard to restamp undetectably due to the textured surface.

Later distributors, with the entire OD of the distributor machined, will bear the above measurement for the larger diameter portion below the cap seat-
Average of 3.816 inches, plus or minus 0.010" or so.

My fake sample was machined with both steps, one to cut the number off, and then the cap seat smaller OD was also re-cut to maintain the [0.020" average] step difference between the two surfaces.

My suspect restamp is '1933 date 8J23, which measured
3.756 cap seat OD - a very NOT-negligible 0.034" less than the MINIMUM factory sample.
3.771 lower body OD - the exact same 0.034" less than the MINIMUM factory sample.

Since the factory maintained basically +/- 0.005" from 3.795" on the cap seat, it appears that this sample was machined about 0.040" smaller in order to restamp it. This should be readily detected with any good or even Chinese calipers.

I hope that this information helps someone else spot some fakery and proceed accordingly.

pogo69

How come I dont see the name(s) of the seller of some of this stuff?

72xw30

I want to know how many more are out there.
WE need other people to post pictures for comparison.

I know there are many people here for a fact that have bought these W restamped parts!
Again, Post your pictures of your W parts - especially if you purchased them through CO or ROP. It will be worthwhile!

Cheers,

Sam

capstoneclub

I have several rare parts that I have collected over the past 30 yrs. I know they are original because I pulled them off of 442's in the 80's. I have never sold any of these parts and have never had them rebuilt until I needed them. I always assume when I see a semi fresh to fully rebuilt part that it is likely a restamp. Its much harder to restamp a part without disturbing the original untouched part numbered area. At least that has always been my assumption.

72xw30

Totally agree!

jensenracing77

This is a real 70 W-30 4 speed carb

dnmfranco

okay which dist is original out of these 5
Also more importantly these dist's passed thru here
some are pretty easy to tell

Nilsson

#4?

72xw30

Yes it is!!

Hope all is well Eric!

Cheers,

Sam

72xw30

dnmfranco,

What is up with the first distributor pictured? Look at the last 2 digits? What are the digits? What the F is that? Work in progress?

Nice pictures

Sam