ENGINE RUNNING HOT

[southcarolina803]

so i have flushed the radiator changed the oil and stuff but after like 20 mins of drivin the engine runs real hot, what r the steps i can take to make it run cooler, i got a 71 cutty supreme with the 350 factory 84000 mi, when i did the tune up i havent done the timing or set the points, does that have any thing to do with it?

[Olds64]

If you didn't set the timing or the dwell then you didn't do a tune up. Timing could definitely cause your car to run hot.

1)Set point gap.
2)Set dwell.
3)Set timing.
3)Set idle speed.
4)Set idle mixture screws.
5)Reset idle speed.

[Lady72nRob71]

Not sure how long you have had the car, but make sure you have at least a 3-core radiator. A 2-core will cause overheating with a V8.

If the above items mentioned by Olds64 check out okay, read through this thread...

http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...ting-help.html

I think it covered almost every possible problem that could lead to overheating...
Good luck!

[southcarolina803]

what should i set my timing advance at ?

[Redog]

20* @ 750 RPM's

36* total advance

[71 delta88guy]

A three row MAY work. A 4 row will. All my 455's have had 4 rows since the first that had a 3 and would on occasion run hot. My setup is 2 electric fans,an adjustable relay and a 4 core. When I began I had a 3 core with the 2 fans and it just wasn't enough. Went with the cooler t stats,flushing,yada yada yada. The 4 core made it so I had to up the t stat to a 192 to get heat in the engine. Never a problem since. Even with modified engines and a lead foot. Seen a lot of posts about timing,carbs. What the heck does a carb and timing have to do with cooling? Too much timing is obvious PING. A bad carb is obvious,bog,black smoke,etc. Treat the problem.

[rocketraider]

What the heck does a carb and timing have to do with cooling?

A hell of a lot, actually.

Lean carburetion will cause overheating.

Retarded spark advance will cause overheating.

A combination of the two will cause a mess.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

A three row may work ........

Why wouldn't it?

If it came with a two row, why wouldn't it work?

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

........ When I began I had a 3 core with the 2 fans and it just wasn't enough. Went with the cooler t stats,flushing, yada yada yada. The 4 core made it so I had to up the t stat to a 192 to get heat in the engine ........

The factory systems worked fine, when they were new. What changed?

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

........ What the heck does a carb and timing have to do with cooling? ........

We can see why you chose the Band-Aid method of cooling system maintenance.

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

........ had to up the t stat to a 192 to get heat in the engine ........

The engine makes the heat. The cooling system sends it to the atmosphere.

A 190° stat, is the logical choice if you want the system to maintain at about 190°.

Norm

[southcarolina803]

ok well my friend has the car today and he is doing all of the above that olds 64 mentioned b/c he has all the necessary tools, while he has it, he is also doing the tranny tune up, rear main seal, and hopefully the front oil seal, does any one know how hard it is to replace that front oil seal? alsoo he is puttin the doughnuts on the the small exhaust leak..

[rocketraider]

If he's going into the rear main seal, spend the extra bucks and get a new oil pump while he's got the oil pan off. Cheap insurance while everything's accessible. Replacing a rear seal is much more involved than a front, since there's no other way to do it except drop the oil pan and #5 bearing cap. And pulling an oil pan in the car is a job I hate and try to avoid doing too often, so if the pan is off for any reason, a new oil pump goes in.

On the front seal- you'll have to remove the belts and pull the harmonic balancer; then replacing the seal is a matter of prying out the old one and putting the new one in. Just make sure it doesn't go in cocked. There's a special tool for the job, but if you don't have it, a squarely cut wood block will do fine. Get it started, then tap evenly all around the seal to seat it in the timing cover.

You ARE hanging around and watching him work, right? If nothing else, to hand him tools, but you might learn something.

[southcarolina803]

yea im all about learning about this car, i wish i could of done it my self but it seems like somthing someone with experience should be doing, so i am there while he is doing this stuff its at his house b/c he has the tools timing light etc, i just need a regular oil pump correct, someone said that these oil pumps on this car is pretty high flo so if i actually bought a hi flow it would pump too much oil in to the motor,i will go get the oil pump tomarrow, and you say i will have to remove the belts, maybe i should go ahead and replace them huh? do i have to remove all of the them?

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by southcarolina803

........ if i actually bought a hi flow it would pump too much oil in to the motor ........

Too much oil, in this case, is not possible as the actual flow is limited by restrictions at the crank/cam bearings and rocker arms.

A "high volume" pump is capable of pumping a higher volume of oil, at a given pressure, than a "standard" pump. Mandatory for "high performance" engines that have wider bearing clearances. Recommended for "high mileage" engines that might have wide clearances, due to wear.

BTW, in your first post, you misspelled Cutlass.

Norm

[71 delta88guy]

To begin with, my car had a 3 row because the prev owner put in a 3 instead of the 4 it was supposed to have.Second,having done a fair number of the suggestions mentioned and having been a mechanic for 23 years I found it simple to go up to a 4 core. 1 it solved the problem,2 I had to up the t stat to a 190 from the 160 I was using when I had the concern. Now the engine gets up to a power friendly 190 and pretty much stays there. Lastly ,what the heck does a carb or timing have to do with an overheat in the driveway? You kinda have to figure the owner might have mentioned other concerns like -lacks power,pops in intake,hesitates. Not looking to get crapped on for this post as previous.Just trying to help a guy out by addressing the posted problem .

[rocketraider]

Deltaguy- remember how most carbuilders started using a thermostatic vacuum switch in the distributor vacuum circuit in the late 60s? Part of that idea was when engine got to a certain temperature at idle it would switch vacuum advance from ported vacuum to manifold vacuum, which would advance the timing and help cool the engine. If cluch fan ain't working it will be even worse.

Redog, are you sure about 20 degrees base timing @ 750? Sounds like a lot on a points engine; even HEI call for that spec at about 1100 RPM.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

To begin with, my car had a 3 row because the prev owner put in a 3 instead of the 4 it was supposed to have ........

How does that apply to this topic?

Here is my initial comment, again:

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Why wouldn't it?

If it came with a two row, why wouldn't it work? ........

To clarify: Why should someone change to a larger radiator, instead of addressing the actual problem?

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

........ Second,having done a fair number of the suggestions mentioned ........

In cases that met, exactly, the circumstances, as described? If so, post the specific cause of his problem.

If not, what is your point?

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

........ and having been a mechanic for 23 years ........

Two points:

• How long an individual has been employed at a trade, has little (if anything) to do with his/her competence.

• Posting ones resume, instead of dealing with the actual discussion, does not enhance ones credibility.

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

........ I found it simple to go up to a 4 core. 1 it solved the problem ........

Of course it did.

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

........ I had to up the t stat to a 190 from the 160 I was using when I had the concern.

Pretty much what you already said.

Here it is, again:

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

........ A 190° stat, is the logical choice if you want the system to maintain at about 190°.

To clarify: If you had wanted it to run at about 160° you would have retained the 160° stat.

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

........ You kinda have to figure the owner might have mentioned other concerns like -lacks power,pops in intake,hesitates ........

If he had those symptoms, it would not be making much heat.

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

........ Not looking to get crapped on for this post as previous. ........

No one is crapping, and no one has been crapped on,

You (like some of the less mature board members here) probably have a simple technical discussion, confused with the name calling/flames/pizzing contests that belong in Private Messages, not in public forums.

Norm

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by rocketraider

........ Part of that idea ........

As far as I know, that is its only function. What are the other parts?

Originally Posted by rocketraider

........ was when engine got to a certain temperature at idle ........

Higher than normal operating temp, but still below the "overheated" stage. Probably 240° or more.

Originally Posted by rocketraider

........ which would advance the timing and help cool the engine ........

The extra advance is to compensate for the retarded timing and lean fuel mixtures (needed to comply with emissions requirements) that contributed to that elevated temp, in the first place.

Originally Posted by rocketraider

........ 20 degrees base timing @ 750? ........

With the vacuum advance disconnected, he should see 10° or 12° @ 1100 RPM, depending which '71 350 engine he has.

Originally Posted by rocketraider

........ Sounds like a lot on a points engine; even HEI call for that spec at about 1100 RPM.

His timing requirements, are not related to the method of triggering the spark. Using the same fuel, the optimum advance curve would be the same, for points and HEI.

Do not ask me how I know this, because I don't wish to post my resume in public.

Norm

[71 delta88guy]

I hope everyone here feels as lucky as I do. To know we have access to a living automotive god. I for one will never forget the experience. No matter how much I laugh at his replys. 88 you are the king baby.

[88 coupe]

Here it is, again:

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

........ You (like some of the less mature board members here) probably have a simple technical discussion, confused with the name calling/flames/pizzing contests that belong in Private Messages, not in public forums.

Not clear enough?

Originally Posted by 71 delta88guy

I hope everyone here feels as lucky as I do. To know we have access to a living automotive god. I for one will never forget the experience. No matter how much I laugh at his replys. 88 you are the king baby.

This, is a good example of the BS that belongs in a PM. Not in a technical discussion.

Norm

[southcarolina803]

hey thanks for all your guys help i am still in the process of gettin this engine to run cooler but so far the timing is done and its not "missing" any more so thats good, also the points are set, soon as i get some time off work which will b wednesday i will get to take it on a little ride....iw ill kkeep you updated

[Olds64]

You said you flushed your radiator, but did you make sure you used the proper anti-freeze/water mix when refilling it? Also, is your radiator cap working properly? Finally, the thermostat isn't installed backwards is it? I know these are dumb questions, but sometimes simple things get overlooked.

[71 delta88guy]

Wouldn't sending a pm kind of presuppose that I cared to hear or wanted a reply?

[88 coupe]

Better, a PM, than continuing to trash this thread.

A simple concept, that most drunks are unable to comprehend.

I'm finished here.

Norm

[southcarolina803]

there is never a dumb question to a new comer to the olds world, the radiator mix is fine i will look at the t stat though

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by southcarolina803

........ the radiator mix is fine ........

The temp differences, between 100% (distilled or tap) water, 100% coolant, or any combination, will not be enough to cause an overheat condition.

Originally Posted by southcarolina803

........ i will look at the t stat though

Put it in a pan of water, on your stove, along with a "cooking" thermometer. Add heat and observe the stat as the water approaches its design temperature.

Ideally, A 180° stat should begin to open at about 175° and not reach full open, until just over 180°.

Under normal conditions, the 5° (or so) difference allows the valve to modulate, in order to keep the radiator inlet temp close to 180°. If it remains closed, the system will get very hot. If it remains open, the system will not reach operating temperature.

If the stat checks out OK, you can invest the cash, you would have spent, on a couple of beers.


Hopefully, the BS is over, and we can focus on your opening post:

Originally Posted by southcarolina803

........ after like 20 mins of drivin ........

City or highway?

Originally Posted by southcarolina803

........ the engine runs real hot ........

How hot?

Norm

[southcarolina803]

its city, i cant take it on the highway b/c well, thats another post.....lol...that im actually figuring out 1 step at a time...

[88 coupe]

Assuming the maintenance is up to date, and the heat issue did not come with the car.

Originally Posted by southcarolina803

........ that im actually figuring out 1 step at a time...

How hot, is the first step. It defines the problem

City and/or highway, is the second step. Usually it eliminates, from consideration, many of the possible causes. Thermostat would be one of them.

Since it cannot be driven at highway (or at least a constant 35 miles per hour) speeds, plan B, is to find a way (fans?) to duplicate a similar (35 miles per hour plus) airflow through the radiator.

Before going to that effort, I would find out how much heat, we are actually dealing with.

Norm

[71 delta88guy]

Thought you were"finished here".

[Oldsguy]

Looks like he came back one more time......to help the op solve a problem. Amazing concept.

[southcarolina803]

ok so i set the timing points and dwell, put a 180 therm on , flushed the radiator again, and changed the oil again, the engine is cranking better and running alot better as far as the get up and go part, i havent taken it on the hwy yet b/c now i have another problem where im leaking gas(read other post)also i flushed the tranny blew the lines and put new fluid in it.