One-off front-wheel-drive Olds 4-4-2
October 25th, 2013, 06:49 AM
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One-off front-wheel-drive Olds 4-4-2
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2...ding-to-mcacn/
by Kurt Ernst
It’s human nature to want what we can’t have. While those weaned on a steady diet of front-engine, rear-wheel-drive cars lament the proliferation of front-wheel drive, there was a time when front-drive was seen as potentially advantageous in a performance car. To test this theory, George Hurst commissioned the build of a special 1968 Oldsmobile 4-4-2, one fitted with the larger V-8 and front-wheel drive of the Oldsmobile Toronado. Now in restored form, the car will make its show debut at the upcoming Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals.
Even for a company with Hurst’s seemingly limitless resources, stuffing the Toronado’s drivetrain into the 4-4-2′s engine bay proved a daunting task. If the project were successful, the net result would be a muscle car that still weighed in the neighborhood of 3,450 pounds, but produced slightly more than 375 horsepower, compared to the 4-4-2′s base output of 350 horsepower. Though 25 horsepower may not seem significant, the addition of 55 cubic inches in displacement would also net a gain of 70 pound-feet of torque. Better yet, Hurst rationalized, the weight of the engine and transmission would be over the drive wheels, which (discounting the physics of weight transfer) should produce better traction for launches.
The project utilized a shortened Toronado frame, cut to join the 4-4-2′s frame just shy of the car’s rear axle. To fit the Toronado’s 455-cu.in. V-8, chain drive and transmission where the 4-4-2′s 400-cu.in. V-8 used to reside, Hurst stretched the wheelbase 2.5 inches, to a total of 114.5 inches. Because the project would do away with the 4-4-2′s driveshaft, rear differential and longitudinal transmission, Hurst cut out the car’s center tunnel and replaced it with flat steel sheeting, adding quite a bit of interior room in the process (a selling point of front-wheel-drive cars that remains to this day).
Compared to the 4-4-2, the Toronado used an extra 12 inches in hood length, meaning that the 455 V-8 would be an extremely tight fit beneath the 4-4-2′s fenders. Even with the larger V-8 positioned as close to the 4-4-2′s modified firewall as possible, the stock radiator and air conditioning core had to be moved forward to make room. Although the Toronado’s engine is slightly offset to the passenger side, the left exhaust manifold had to be cut and re-welded to clear the steering post, while the right exhaust manifold had to be customized to make room for the air conditioning compressor. Though period reports don’t specify the exact engine output, the 455-cu.in. V-8 did benefit from a forced-air intake and blueprinting by Hurst staffers, meaning that the Toronado’s original 375 horsepower and 510 pound-feet of torque would have been conservative estimates.
Out back, the 4-4-2 lost its unneeded rear differential, replaced by the Toronado’s tube axle and a hybrid combination of Toronado and 4-4-2 suspension components. Instead of the Toronado’s dual shock absorber and leaf spring rear suspension, the car used coil springs, shocks and control links, adapted by Hurst to fit the unconventional installation. As the car’s weight distribution was now radically different from what Oldsmobile engineers had intended, a brake proportioning valve had to be added to prevent rear brake lockup. Even this wasn’t enough to solve brake hop under heavy braking, so the Hurst engineers played with the control arm pivot points until the car was manageable.
The March 1968 issue of Super Stock magazine describes the front-drive 4-4-2 as, “…superior to either a Toronado or to a 4-4-2. More performance, more traction, improved cornering, better handling, added maneuverability, everything.” Those are some bold claims, particularly when they’re not backed up by any kind of performance measurements, and it’s likely that comparable (or, perhaps, even more impressive) results could have been obtained by a few simple improvements to the 4-4-2′s stock 400-cu.in. V-8 and stock suspension.
The car’s history between 1968 and 1970 remains a mystery, but in 1970 Bill Hess purchased the car from Guy Martin Oldsmobile in California. It had been dressed up a bit, with a black hood stripe and black pinstriping, but otherwise was identical to the car covered by Super Stock in 1968. Hess and his family held onto the car for 42 years, reluctant to sell the one-of-a-kind Oldsmobile to someone who would simply flip the car for a profit. Following last year’s MCACN, Hess received a call from Oldsmobile collector Fred Mandrick, and shortly after the two struck a deal. The restoration began as soon as the car arrived at Mandrick’s shop, and in less than a year he’s managed to go through the engine and transmission (which, oddly, is fitted with 3.54:1 final gearing), restore the interior (which remains mostly original, except for a few pieces of brightwork and the driver’s seat bottom), repaint the body (in its original monochrome gold) and repaint the frame.
For an engineering exercise built by a third-party company (albeit one with strong GM ties) in just 45 days, Mandrick sums it up as, “well done, but not done well.” Scraps of the car’s original headliner, replaced by Hurst during its 1968 build, were found beneath the carpeting, and a body bushing was missing from one side, allowing the body to rub on the frame. The stretched front fenders, lengthened to accommodate the car’s stretched wheelbase, still carried the donor car’s black paint inside. Mandrick corrected these minor flaws during his restoration, and the end product represents the build that George Hurst, perhaps with Oldsmobile influence, had envisioned 45 years earlier.
Mandrick will unveil his unique 4-4-2 November 23, at the Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals show in Rosemont, Illinois. For more information on the show, visit MCACN.com, and keep your eyes peeled for an in-depth article on the 4-4-2 in an upcoming issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines.
by Kurt Ernst
It’s human nature to want what we can’t have. While those weaned on a steady diet of front-engine, rear-wheel-drive cars lament the proliferation of front-wheel drive, there was a time when front-drive was seen as potentially advantageous in a performance car. To test this theory, George Hurst commissioned the build of a special 1968 Oldsmobile 4-4-2, one fitted with the larger V-8 and front-wheel drive of the Oldsmobile Toronado. Now in restored form, the car will make its show debut at the upcoming Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals.
Even for a company with Hurst’s seemingly limitless resources, stuffing the Toronado’s drivetrain into the 4-4-2′s engine bay proved a daunting task. If the project were successful, the net result would be a muscle car that still weighed in the neighborhood of 3,450 pounds, but produced slightly more than 375 horsepower, compared to the 4-4-2′s base output of 350 horsepower. Though 25 horsepower may not seem significant, the addition of 55 cubic inches in displacement would also net a gain of 70 pound-feet of torque. Better yet, Hurst rationalized, the weight of the engine and transmission would be over the drive wheels, which (discounting the physics of weight transfer) should produce better traction for launches.
The project utilized a shortened Toronado frame, cut to join the 4-4-2′s frame just shy of the car’s rear axle. To fit the Toronado’s 455-cu.in. V-8, chain drive and transmission where the 4-4-2′s 400-cu.in. V-8 used to reside, Hurst stretched the wheelbase 2.5 inches, to a total of 114.5 inches. Because the project would do away with the 4-4-2′s driveshaft, rear differential and longitudinal transmission, Hurst cut out the car’s center tunnel and replaced it with flat steel sheeting, adding quite a bit of interior room in the process (a selling point of front-wheel-drive cars that remains to this day).
Compared to the 4-4-2, the Toronado used an extra 12 inches in hood length, meaning that the 455 V-8 would be an extremely tight fit beneath the 4-4-2′s fenders. Even with the larger V-8 positioned as close to the 4-4-2′s modified firewall as possible, the stock radiator and air conditioning core had to be moved forward to make room. Although the Toronado’s engine is slightly offset to the passenger side, the left exhaust manifold had to be cut and re-welded to clear the steering post, while the right exhaust manifold had to be customized to make room for the air conditioning compressor. Though period reports don’t specify the exact engine output, the 455-cu.in. V-8 did benefit from a forced-air intake and blueprinting by Hurst staffers, meaning that the Toronado’s original 375 horsepower and 510 pound-feet of torque would have been conservative estimates.
Out back, the 4-4-2 lost its unneeded rear differential, replaced by the Toronado’s tube axle and a hybrid combination of Toronado and 4-4-2 suspension components. Instead of the Toronado’s dual shock absorber and leaf spring rear suspension, the car used coil springs, shocks and control links, adapted by Hurst to fit the unconventional installation. As the car’s weight distribution was now radically different from what Oldsmobile engineers had intended, a brake proportioning valve had to be added to prevent rear brake lockup. Even this wasn’t enough to solve brake hop under heavy braking, so the Hurst engineers played with the control arm pivot points until the car was manageable.
The March 1968 issue of Super Stock magazine describes the front-drive 4-4-2 as, “…superior to either a Toronado or to a 4-4-2. More performance, more traction, improved cornering, better handling, added maneuverability, everything.” Those are some bold claims, particularly when they’re not backed up by any kind of performance measurements, and it’s likely that comparable (or, perhaps, even more impressive) results could have been obtained by a few simple improvements to the 4-4-2′s stock 400-cu.in. V-8 and stock suspension.
The car’s history between 1968 and 1970 remains a mystery, but in 1970 Bill Hess purchased the car from Guy Martin Oldsmobile in California. It had been dressed up a bit, with a black hood stripe and black pinstriping, but otherwise was identical to the car covered by Super Stock in 1968. Hess and his family held onto the car for 42 years, reluctant to sell the one-of-a-kind Oldsmobile to someone who would simply flip the car for a profit. Following last year’s MCACN, Hess received a call from Oldsmobile collector Fred Mandrick, and shortly after the two struck a deal. The restoration began as soon as the car arrived at Mandrick’s shop, and in less than a year he’s managed to go through the engine and transmission (which, oddly, is fitted with 3.54:1 final gearing), restore the interior (which remains mostly original, except for a few pieces of brightwork and the driver’s seat bottom), repaint the body (in its original monochrome gold) and repaint the frame.
For an engineering exercise built by a third-party company (albeit one with strong GM ties) in just 45 days, Mandrick sums it up as, “well done, but not done well.” Scraps of the car’s original headliner, replaced by Hurst during its 1968 build, were found beneath the carpeting, and a body bushing was missing from one side, allowing the body to rub on the frame. The stretched front fenders, lengthened to accommodate the car’s stretched wheelbase, still carried the donor car’s black paint inside. Mandrick corrected these minor flaws during his restoration, and the end product represents the build that George Hurst, perhaps with Oldsmobile influence, had envisioned 45 years earlier.
Mandrick will unveil his unique 4-4-2 November 23, at the Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals show in Rosemont, Illinois. For more information on the show, visit MCACN.com, and keep your eyes peeled for an in-depth article on the 4-4-2 in an upcoming issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines.
Last edited by ddd777; October 25th, 2013 at 06:52 AM.
October 25th, 2013, 07:48 AM
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That air cleaner housing looks to be from a mid 70's car since it has the connection for a hose at the end of the snorkel. I did hear of a front wheel drive Cutlass as an Engineering project from Olds.
October 25th, 2013, 08:13 AM
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October 25th, 2013, 08:15 AM
#5
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That leads me to believe that they started with the '68 400 HP W34 Toro engine, not the 385 HP standard Toro engine.
October 25th, 2013, 08:19 AM
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Also, period articles on this car are posted at Wild About Cars:
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9920401234143
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9920401234143
October 26th, 2013, 11:01 AM
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Sorry to change the subject but looking for more information on the air cleaner?. I think I may have one like this one. Do you know where I could get pictures of the bottom side? Mine has recessed areas like this one but it is not the 77 style for the HEI distributor.
October 26th, 2013, 11:17 AM
#10
1970 442
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 238
"Hess and his family held onto the car for 42 years, reluctant to sell the one-of-a-kind Oldsmobile to someone who would simply flip the car for a profit. Following last year’s MCACN, Hess received a call from Oldsmobile collector Fred Mandrick, and shortly after the two struck a deal."
In the past month or so I've read more about this car than I ever knew. And I bet ya the car will soon go across the auction block. Thats what these guys do, restore a car, then get it as much media as they can, then sell it. Sorry to say this Mr Hess, but I'd guarantee once all the hoopla is over, the car will be for sale.
Hurst rationalized the weight of the engine and transmission would be over the drive wheels, which (discounting the physics of weight transfer) should produce better traction for launches.
This would be George Hurst, Marketing Man. Hurst wasn't that dumb to believe this.
The March 1968 issue of Super Stock magazine describes the front-drive 4-4-2 as, “…superior to either a Toronado or to a 4-4-2. More performance, more traction, improved cornering, better handling, added maneuverability, everything.” Those are some bold claims, particularly when they’re not backed up by any kind of performance measurements...
Yeah...no kidding....
Personally I think its a hoot, but its pretty ugly. It just proves that someone could make a fwd Cutlass. It's the same as seeing a custom Chevy Corvair with a V8 up front.
Thank for the post though, it's an interesting car.
In the past month or so I've read more about this car than I ever knew. And I bet ya the car will soon go across the auction block. Thats what these guys do, restore a car, then get it as much media as they can, then sell it. Sorry to say this Mr Hess, but I'd guarantee once all the hoopla is over, the car will be for sale.
Hurst rationalized the weight of the engine and transmission would be over the drive wheels, which (discounting the physics of weight transfer) should produce better traction for launches.
This would be George Hurst, Marketing Man. Hurst wasn't that dumb to believe this.
The March 1968 issue of Super Stock magazine describes the front-drive 4-4-2 as, “…superior to either a Toronado or to a 4-4-2. More performance, more traction, improved cornering, better handling, added maneuverability, everything.” Those are some bold claims, particularly when they’re not backed up by any kind of performance measurements...
Yeah...no kidding....
Personally I think its a hoot, but its pretty ugly. It just proves that someone could make a fwd Cutlass. It's the same as seeing a custom Chevy Corvair with a V8 up front.
Thank for the post though, it's an interesting car.
October 26th, 2013, 11:18 AM
#11
1970 442
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October 26th, 2013, 12:26 PM
#12
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Sorry to change the subject but looking for more information on the air cleaner?. I think I may have one like this one. Do you know where I could get pictures of the bottom side? Mine has recessed areas like this one but it is not the 77 style for the HEI distributor.
The '69-'70 W34 air cleaners are the standard Toro ones. There was not OAI even though Olds still referred to the '69-'70 W34 as OAI.
October 26th, 2013, 12:58 PM
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I don't know what you mean by the bottom side, Eric, but the bottom of the 1968 W34 air cleaner is the same as the standard Toro unit. I don't know if the snorkel end is different or not.
The '69-'70 W34 air cleaners are the standard Toro ones. There was not OAI even though Olds still referred to the '69-'70 W34 as OAI.
The '69-'70 W34 air cleaners are the standard Toro ones. There was not OAI even though Olds still referred to the '69-'70 W34 as OAI.
October 26th, 2013, 02:30 PM
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This car surfaced about 8 years ago. Bill Hess's son-in-law was a Corvette guy and started posting the pics of the car on a Corvette forum. The pics showed a car completely covered with crap in Hess's garage. He spun this tale about how it was a one-off car that the factory produced for some executive at Oldsmobile. He was trashed pretty badly by the Olds guys on the forum. I think when Hess bought the car that's the story he was told by the dealer. Eventually someone dug up the article that's on WAC and posted it. It seemed he (Hess) never knew just what he had until his son-in-law let the cat out of the bag.
Some of the comments on this recent article are pretty funny. Some guy makes a comment that the car would be worth a lot more money had they left it as a 68 442 and not modified it.
I don't believe for a minute that this car was bought for anything except to restore and flip
Some of the comments on this recent article are pretty funny. Some guy makes a comment that the car would be worth a lot more money had they left it as a 68 442 and not modified it.
I don't believe for a minute that this car was bought for anything except to restore and flip
Last edited by allyolds68; October 26th, 2013 at 02:34 PM.
October 27th, 2013, 05:34 AM
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Well folks just to set the story straight. I am the guy who bought and restored the car and much to your misunderstanding about me as a collector i have no plans to flip this car period. Those who know me know I rarely sell anything and i feel very fortunate to have this car as part of my collection.
It is a W34 motor and trans out of a test car from GM, the air cleaner is correct for a W34 with an "OM" silk screen on the pass side.
I encourage everyone to come and see it for yourself in Chicago and with a display will be worthy of a car with this kind of history.
It is a W34 motor and trans out of a test car from GM, the air cleaner is correct for a W34 with an "OM" silk screen on the pass side.
I encourage everyone to come and see it for yourself in Chicago and with a display will be worthy of a car with this kind of history.
October 27th, 2013, 05:47 AM
#17
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Well folks just to set the story straight. I am the guy who bought and restored the car and much to your misunderstanding about me as a collector i have no plans to flip this car period. Those who know me know I rarely sell anything and i feel very fortunate to have this car as part of my collection.
It is a W34 motor and trans out of a test car from GM, the air cleaner is correct for a W34 with an "OM" silk screen on the pass side.
I encourage everyone to come and see it for yourself in Chicago and with a display will be worthy of a car with this kind of history.
It is a W34 motor and trans out of a test car from GM, the air cleaner is correct for a W34 with an "OM" silk screen on the pass side.
I encourage everyone to come and see it for yourself in Chicago and with a display will be worthy of a car with this kind of history.
October 27th, 2013, 08:14 AM
#21
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The floor has ben reworked and the tunnel removed as well as the console based contoured to the a flat floor. A very unique car while people question "why" sometime you don't know what works until you try it. This car handles well and very little torque steer no more than a rear wheel drive car. The ride quality is much better than a rear wheel drive as well, i have both a 68 W30 low mile original car and a restored 68 Hurst Olds car to compare it to and they each have their strong points.
I am glad this car has survived all these years and was so well preserved by Mr. Hesse.
Hopefully this group will get a chance to see it in Chicago when we unveil it restored to its original glory.
I am glad this car has survived all these years and was so well preserved by Mr. Hesse.
Hopefully this group will get a chance to see it in Chicago when we unveil it restored to its original glory.
October 27th, 2013, 09:01 AM
#23
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It has the toro suspension up front and 442 coils in the rear and yes the engine is offset which required both exhaust manifolds to be reworked as well. The frames were married together to be a combo of each car. Lots of engineering to make this work and after 45 years and 116,000 miles it proves the Hurst guys knew how to build a car.
September 17th, 2018, 01:27 PM
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Painter
My dad, Joe Lakatos was the paint man for the Foronado. He put 13 coats of gold metal flake to cover the body. George Sanchel did the welding to couple the Toronado front end with the 442 rear. It was build at Joe Brugels in Taylor Michigan.
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