jag1886

I have the 65 Cutlass with the almost new 350 that I paid the Machinist $4000 to rebuild. I have a pinging problem and today I had a third party to a compression check and it came out, 7 cylinders have a 195 and 1 has 190 cranking compression.
I think the guy built a good 10-1 engine and just put in the wrong cam. I'm want to somehow get this guy to pay for at least part of the new cam, lifters, springs and gaskets.
I called the guy a week ago and he said he'd go dig up my file and call back but hasn't.
Do I go in and be nice or go in with both barrels loaded.
Any opinions would be helpful or if you've been through this let me know what happened.

m371961

What octane fuel are you using? Where is timing at?

ziff396

x2. I would put premium in it and set the timing @ 3-3500 rpm anywhere from 32-36 depending on what it likes and go from there before confronting him on the issue. You need to back yourself up first. Also, your advance might be to fast etc. Good luck!

oldcutlass

It can be a number of ignition timing related issues from total mechanical with and without vacuum advance. What are your settings?

jag1886

Come on guys you can't tune 195 LBS of cranking pressure away.

MDchanic

But why would I want to?

- Eric

Mike77

I'm not sure I understand your issue.
The car pings under acceleration. You have a new rebuild engine. One cylinder is 5 PSI lower than the others. You think the cam is a problem. You want to change the cam , lifters, springs and gaskets.
I would check a bunch of other stuff before I blame the cam and/or builder.

ent72olds

My 425 was pinging under load like a banshee. I adjusted timing and dwell, solved the problem....car runs much better too.....

Solid Lifters

I get the issue. 195 lbs of compression on a rebuild that wasn't expected to be built as a high compression engine. Maybe it's a combination of several things, deck height, head gaskets, cut heads, and camshaft. I'd think for 4K to build a 350 you should get exactly what you expected. Sounds high unless he R & R'd it and did other stuff. As far as the being nice or both barrels loaded question, a lot depends on the integrity of the shop.

lemoldsnut

If you go in with both barrels loaded then you are looking for a fight. If you go in with a better attitude then you are looking for a solution. I think the goal is a solution isn't it? Timing, how about carb lean or richness, or exhaust restrictions, fuel quality? Lots to consider. Be nice and go in and ask for advise not to blame. Might find he is a good guy and will help and it maybe something simple.

dantecl

Stop by the shop, be nice, but firm. No one gains anything by coming on with barrels loaded. And like others said, check timing, etc. Do yer homework. Go in and talk towards a solution, not a fight.

MDchanic

Still no info about timing or type of gas you're using...

- Eric

s i 442

Ok, instead of making suggestions to fix lets just cut to the chase.
You got a $4000 engine that is built wrong, your screwed.
There that was easy.

507OLDS

I would start with the easy stuff.Check the timing at 3,000rpm,and see what it is.You should have total timing by then,meaning the timing should not be advancing anymore.This is more critical than initial timing,or the timing at idle.
What gas are you running? You will likely need something more than 87 octane.I would put 93 in it for trial & error.

TripDeuces

195 might be a little high for a street car but it's nothing that can't be fixed. I'd rather see 180-185. Try all the timing advice first and see how that goes. If all else fails you can always go a little bigger on the cam to help bleed off some of that pressure. 5-10 degree bigger cam can't hurt at this point.

oldcutlass

X2 - plus what distributor, so we can get an idea of what you have. Most street engines can run 195#'s on 93 octane.

jag1886

I have pulled 2 degrees out of the initial that leaves 10 and I took 6 degrees out of the vacuum advance and I also slowed down the mech to be all in at 4000 instead of 3200.
Once again my problem is driving in the mountains, it pings like hell on long grades at 55 in OD also does it on long grades on the interstate.
Everyone I talk to say that with the available gas these days you should be down in the 160-180 range.
I wouldn't worry about 195 if you could get good gas every where, I have way less problems with the 91 octane non alcohol gas I can get here in town but out on the road you have to use what you can find.
My engine is a 69 350 +.030 10.25 pistons with 14cc dish .005 down the hole, 65 cc heads, and I assume a Permatorque gasket of about .045.
The engine builder put a 206/214 448/472 on a 117 cam in it, I tried 3 different times to get him to use a larger cam more suited for a 10-0 engine and he would have no part of it. It's like the guy went through the book and said whats crapiest cam we can find for this engine.
My car has a 3:90 gear and a 200r4 trans mission so once again I don't get it with the puny little cam.
I am going to change the cam to TQ-40 with all new valve train fill the crossovers weld out the divider in the heads, add a 2400 stall converter and add a set of of those expensive American racing headers.
The guy didn't give me what I wanted he gave 1/2 of one kind of engine and 1/2 of another kind and the 2 haves don't fit together.

jag1886

I love this and you are probably real close to have to most correct answer, that I'm sure with another bucket full of money it probably get to where I wanted it, to begin with.

ziff396

Now that you have posted some spec's, I would think that cam is junk for that motor. Just my opinion. I am sure Cutlass efi or others experienced in this will chime in with what you should have for your motor.

TripDeuces

Those cam specs explain it all

jag1886

He does agree he is the one that told me to put a TQ-40 in when the engine was being built.

jag1886

That is what I was trying to tell the guy when the engine was built.

.
Back the original question how would you guys handle this to try and get some help from of this guy. This is a large shop in the area, he builds lots of engines, even engines they run on the salt flats.
I don't want to drag the guy down the gravel road naked, I just want to fix this problem.
I called the guy a week and a 1/2 ago and he won't return the call, I was nice just told him the problem and what I found.

s i 442

After changing out the cam you should throw it at his front door.
Im a big "Comp Cams" fan and nothing over 110 lobe separation and thats mild but with good lift and duration numbers they are awesome.
If it don't lope then just go all stock.

droldsmorland

To the original question... Make a formal meeting time with him if possible to discuss the matter. Id go in and talk quietly in his office behind closed doors so only he and you are present. Present him the facts and only the facts (mam). The facts are the data you've assembled yourself and from this site and the fact its not preforming to your liking. Then ask him what "we" can do to remedy the situation. He may offer to tune it. High Elevation presents its own set of obstacles to get the right A/F mixture. If you go up and down in elevation frequently its tough to tune an analogue engine due to the varying air density & pressures etc... Computer controlled cars with O2 and other sensors over come this with the ability to adjust settings on the fly according to the feed back from sensors to the computers. We dont have the luxury with a carbureted engine. The best you can do is tune for a compromise between high & lower elevations with jetting, timing and compression etc.... What I have done in the past is tune the engine for where I do most of my driving. When I know I was going up to the Donner Summit Id have the distributor loose enough to back it off until I came back to where I lived. It worked.
If you get nowhere and you have no signed agreement with a specific BOM (bill of material) spelled out or statement-of-work you basically have learned an expensive lesson. Bill Travato and other higher end machine shops will provide you with a BOM of exactly is going into the build. It is one of the only ways to CYA for both the business and the consumer and is just good practice...especially in today's hack-n-slash sue happy society.

Mike77

So the issue is, The cylinder pressure is too high for today's gas. The high altitude and cam are contributing to pre detenation. Is it not a somewhat easy fix. Change the cam or do you need to change the valves and springs as well? I love learning stuff from you guy's. I sound so smart when I tell my buddies stuff.LOL!
I would have a sit down with the builder and have a NICE chat about were to go from here. I am sure he didn't build the engine incorrectly just to **** you off. If he's a large shop shouldn't be big burden to change out a cam.

Mike

jag1886

I would have a sit down with the builder and have a NICE chat about were to go from here. I am sure he didn't build the engine incorrectly just to **** you off. If he's a large shop shouldn't be big burden to change out a cam.

I'm sure he didn't do it to **** me off, I believe that the old guys in the shop did and excellent job on the machine work and assembly. I think this guy used this cam because it was an high profit margin piece that probably came with the engine rebuild kit he choose.

ropewrench

My builder went all out race on my stroker
We ended up with thicker head gaskets and premium pump gas

Bfg

Kick him in the nuts and run like hell!

shiftbyear

Maybe try a colder heat range spark plug. Worth a try. Maybe a colder thermostat.

oldcutlass

So what was the end result with this thread?

scrappie

I'm thinking he may have done something by now, its only been about 5 YEARS!

Koda

Oh thread,
arise from the dead,
some noobie should be kicked in the head,
before he ends up dead,
since the dates on the posts were not read,
and the mods are seeing red,
because the rules left unsaid,
are to not raise threads from the dead.