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Old May 11th, 2011, 10:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
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twin turbo small block olds?? YES!!!!!

i stumbled across this on ebay today, searching for exhaust manifolds. seems like a decent price, and the T3/T4 turbo's are only about $100!!! so for $850 plus some custom downpipe fabrication, u could have a twin turbo small block olds!!!

i'm not to familiar with turbos....does anyone have any insight on this install? i know i would need these manifolds, the turbo's, and the custom downpipes, an air cooler, and a new aircleaner setup to accept the two turbo tubes, but what other components would be needed to complete this job?? they say the twin turbo would add 300HP!! i was thinking maybe just do one side, save some money, and get a 150HP gain without putting too much strain on the engine and trans. i would be somewhere around 475HP with one turbo, that would be excellent, and a show stopper at local car events:-)

so here is the run down:

turbo manifolds- $475.00 shipped
2 T3 turbos- $300.00 shipped (internal wastegates)
intercooler- $100.00 shipped
carb hat- $100.00 shipped (this mounts on top of the carb to accept the intake from turbos)
downpipe and plumbing fabrication- $200.00???

here are the links:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Unive...item20b16069a3
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Old May 11th, 2011, 12:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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wow, thats pretty crazy. I wonder what kind of horse power that adds
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Old May 11th, 2011, 01:25 PM   #3 (permalink)
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the twin setup says it will add 300HP easily. each turbo @ 20 PSI are supposed to make 200HP each, but that's maxed out. i think the two together, running at about 14psi would be adding around 300HP.
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Old May 11th, 2011, 01:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Great idea but there is a lot more to it than that. You get what you pay for on components like that. A good blow through carb will cost you 800-900.00 alone. I am not trusting my my motor I spent good money on to a cheap ebay turbo either. If you are talking a true junkyard build and you don't care if it lasts more that a few thousand miles then go for it.
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Old May 11th, 2011, 01:41 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Additionally, the idea you proposed about using a single turbo off one bank will probably work in the short term, but longevity would certainly be an issue with an unbalanced system. I always did think that the single exhaust system with the crossover manifold could be an interesting start to a single large turbo system, but you have to keep the backpressure equal to both banks to have any prayer of driveability. At one point, I even had the turbo off a cummins diesel I was going to attempt to bolt/weld/duct tape/bailing wire onto the single exhaust of my 425. My only drawback was then how to make carburation work, as the standard carb works on vacuum, and like gearhead mentions above, a carb that works through blowthrough is not a cheap proposition at all.

Anyhow, I have seen those manifolds and wondered if anyone here has attempted such a beast yet. Could be a lot of fun, could be an expensive lesson before it goes boom! I would suggest starting with the cheapest running engine you can find, and the cheapest turbos to work out the plumbing nightmare that you'll have to engineer. Once you've proven the concept, THEN use good equipment.

Just my 2 cents.

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Old May 11th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
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i have actually heard alot of positive things about these t3/t4 turbos....alot of imports are using them. i also have an acura that i tinker with (my daily driver) and supposedly they are pretty solid turbos. but yeah, obviously a $900 turbo would probably be a bit more reliable than these. just thought it was interesting that someone could potentially have a twin turbo system installed for around $1000!!! and if you check out some of the chevelle/camaro forums, there are actually alot of people that are running similar setups.

i did discover that edelbrock carbs are not "blow through" recommended, but i found a video on you tube of how to rebuild them to be perfectly fine in these applications. holley carb's are easily modified for blow through. there are companies that sell "blow through ready" double pumpers for around $800. and since i have and edelbrock performer 650, i know i would have to swap out my carb for a suitable one. demon carb's are also blow through ready.

and on the contrary, i don't belive the plumbing for this setup would be too tough for a qualified shop to whip up. u would need 2 downpipes, one for each side, about a foot and a half long with minor bends. then you would need 2 exhuast ports going from each turbo into a "Y" junction. that would then run to the intercooler mounted on front of the radiator (behind the grill). then out of the intercooler into the carb hat. that really isn't too much considering the space under the hood. any exhaust shop could bend up that piping in no time at all.

going fuel injected would be much easier and probably more reliable. but i think this system would make more power and be more reliable than people think. i notice alot of people hear the words "cheap" and "Ebay" and automatically assume that it's junk, or a fake. i beg to differ on that assumption. i am an ebay rat, and have had much luck and saved alot of money on all kinds of things using ebay, u just have to be smart about what sellers you choose to deal with. 4 years back i had a 99 toyota tacoma 4cyl. i bought a set of headers, "Vortex" throttle body spacer, cold air intake, and an electric "turbo" that mounted behind the air cleaner that just sucked more air through the air cleaner, not a true turbo system....all of which were dirt cheap from ebay. i spent about $350 on all of it, and got a 47HP gain on the dyno just from those mods. i drove that truck for 3 years, beat the hell out of it, and had no problems at all. that truck would chirp third with 33" tires!!! all i'm saying is don't rule it out before trying it out. and to me, this seems like a pretty solid twin turbo setup for the money...it's not like adding a 300HP shot of nitrous to a beat up motor.
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Old May 11th, 2011, 04:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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oh, I completely agree wit you on Ebay finds. I'm scoping things out there all the time too. I bought a whole car off there sight unseen, because I knew what it was and pretty much rebuilt the entire thing from Ebay used parts. It turned out really nice, and I still have it!

The T3/T4 is a solid unit, and unless it's really worn out, starting with used ones should be no problem at all. Even if you have to replace one or both of them later on with similar cheap units, it's still a big savings over new. There's plenty of room for plumbing a system like this in an old RWD monster, and as long as you have the carb issues covered, it sounds like a lot of fun. I was thinking about it myself, but was hoping I would see if someone else had taken the plunge first and figured out the details besides just buying the parts to put it together. If you're serious about giving it a shot, make sure to take plenty of pics and keep us posted on the progress.

Since these guys are making their own manifolds, there will be plenty to go around if it turns out to be a fun and affordable mod!

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Old May 11th, 2011, 06:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
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14psi x2 through a stock rotating assembly ?? Yeah right......keep dreaming.
Cool ebay find though nonetheless, but there's ALOT more to it then just bolting up hair dryers and going.

Most of the modern engines NOT built for boost can safely handle 5-6lbs of SC or Turbo boost before you're pushing it.
A classic rotating assembly isn't going to cut it......let alone 14psi x2. lol

When I was going to build a Turbo 383 stroker it was all 4340 forged internals to keep it alive beyond 5psi

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Originally Posted by gearheads78 View Post
Great idea but there is a lot more to it than that. You get what you pay for on components like that. A good blow through carb will cost you 800-900.00 alone. I am not trusting my my motor I spent good money on to a cheap ebay turbo either. If you are talking a true junkyard build and you don't care if it lasts more that a few thousand miles then go for it.
Agreed.
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Old May 11th, 2011, 06:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
14psi x2 through a stock rotating assembly ?? Yeah right......keep dreaming.
Cool ebay find though nonetheless, but there's ALOT more to it then just bolting up hair dryers and going.

Most of the modern engines NOT built for boost can safely handle 5-6lbs of SC or Turbo boost before you're pushing it.
A classic rotating assembly isn't going to cut it......let alone 14psi x2. lol

When I was going to build a Turbo 383 stroker it was all 4340 forged internals to keep it alive beyond 5psi

Agreed.
X2, you will have blow by like a MO FO if you use a stock shortblock. There is also a misconception that you can just Turbo or SC a car and it'll be badass...no way! To see the potential that setup can have you will have to change your cam, ensure you've built a rock solid bottom end, and...oh yeah, lower your compression. You're gonna need expensive head gaskets, 1/2" head studs...the list goes on.

There is so much to doing this, there is a reason you don't see it more often. Sure, buy the parts for $1000...then put a $10,000 engine together that can handle it and you're all set
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Old May 11th, 2011, 07:05 PM   #10 (permalink)
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10,000 seems like a little exaggeration. I was thinking since the motor was completely rebuilt a few years ago bottom up, has a forged steel crank, Edelbrock power package (cam, lifters, timing gears & chain, intake), fresh gaskets, and is naturally a high compression engine (roughly around 10:1) that it may be a good candidate for something like this cuz it's built to run under those conditions. I could be wrong, I agree it would take some tweaking. turbos in general are known to be basically bolt on horsepower that uses an engine as is while modifying the intake, exhaust cycle. I'' pretty sure most imports that offer a turbo and non-turbo models use the exact same 4 or 6 cyl engine specs, they just add the turbo assembly. But I agree, any modification can damage the engine if not functioning properly. And the turbo's can be ran at a lower PSI right?? I just referenced 14 cuz that's what the website listed w/ the horsepower rating. And at a lower psi, might they last longer??

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Old May 11th, 2011, 07:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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It would be great if some of the members could come up with a hybrid motor of sorts. get this, a W-43 headed LS based motor. It would be a 7 Liter 560 ft lbs,680 hp naturally aspirated monster. Steel crank and rods, all roller. 8000 rpm of olds power ready for super or turbo charging and maybe a 300 hp shot of NX.
What do you think?
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Old May 11th, 2011, 07:22 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I would normally nod my head and keep trucking but I believe you are not entirely correct. Turbo engines are not built the same as normal engines. They are not entirely "bolt on".

The idea behind a turbo is to increase cylinder pressure and volume. If you're starting with a 10:1 engine and then ADDING 14lbs X 2...you're going to blow head gaskets and blow by your piston rings.

These aren't low compression "import" 4 & 6 cylinder engines. These are big cube torque monsters already, now you're adding FORCED induction and increasing a high horsepower engine to an even higher horsepower engine. It's a far cry comparing an import POS 4 cyl to a SBO or BBO.

Aside from that, cam selection is critical in building a FORCED induction engine. Depending on whether you use a TURBO or a SUPER CHARGER you will either have a short duration / high lift cam, or a long duration / med. lift cam...

All said, if you want to bolt one on...go for it. Post pics and let us know how it runs. I see you plan for 300 HP gains but without the proper peripheral running hardware, I would expect only a fraction of that. However it goes, when you blow a head gasket please post the result
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Old May 11th, 2011, 07:43 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Well, here's the deal. 10:1 compression is typically WAY too high to run any kind of boost. Usually the max is about 8-9:1 tops. Unless you want serious top end issues, and by serious, I mean popping head gaskets, cracking heads, breaking head bolts, and maybe even bending rods, you're going to have to lower the compression.

Most aftermarket turbo kits sell a spaced gasket designed to lower the compression to something manageable, and as far as the newer engines using the same lower end, that's incorrect. They may look about the same, but they have serious internal differences. Some of which include directed nozzle oil squirter tubes to hit the bottom of the pistons for cooling, stronger rods, forged crank, etc. You could do it with an Olds V8 in stock trim, but be prepared for it to not last long under that kind of strain.

Additionally, you HAVE to have a different cam profile. Stock ones will not work at all, as you need to completely remove any valve overlap. If you have overlap on a boosted engine, it completely negates the pressure you're trying to build in the combustion chamber, as it pushes right out the exhaust instead.

I personally know and have driven a turbo VR6 VW corrado that was built by a good friend of mine that used a 100% stock bottom end with no spacer and ran the stock 10:1 compression. NOT recommended to do it that way, and the kit came with a spacer, but he decided to give it a shot and see what happened. He had a spare engine ready to go if needed too. That helped the decision.

So far so good. I know the car has been together for at least 6 years now, and has tens of thousands of miles on it and still screams any time you want power and floor it. So much so that it peels tires off in 1st-3rd no problem.

I've seen a few other "homebrew" turbo setups, and if done right, they are awesome, and reliable. I've driven stock factory turbos that I wouldn't want to own or pay for the repairs on as well. It all goes both ways. You have to know a bit about what you are after, what the engine itself will handle, and what your budget is for building such a beast. The only way to actually figure it all out is to give it a shot and see what happens for applications that very few people have tried.

The FASTEST car I ever rode in was a 1978 Scirocco that a buddy built starting with a calloway drivetrain (MAJOR junkyard score) that he reworked into something that scared me, and I'm damn near fearless in a vehicle. T4 turbo running 20+ pounds of boost + a massive intercooler and water injection for cooling plus a stand-alone injection system. This one would run consistent 11's at the strip, and I was in the car on open highway with him once when he buried the speedo at 160+ in 4th gear. When he shifted to 5th, I called uncle. I never sat in that car again as it wasn't caged and the passenger only had the stock seatbelt, where the driver had a 5-point. Watched him totally embarrass some poor guy in a twin turbo Mitsubishi 3000GT 5-speed on the interstate once when he (the other driver) was apparently with his girlfriend/wife. Literally saw her beat him over the head with something through the back window as he tried to keep up to no avail.

Bottom line? Turbos can be fun and FAST, but you do have to know a bit more than just running the plumbing. Personally, I'd much rather try with fuel injection than carbs, as it's much easier to get it running in the first place. If you really want to mess with a turbo Oldsmobile, try looking for one of these:

http://www.oldsjetfire.com/classified-ads

After all, Oldsmobile pioneered Turbocharging and fuel injection WAY before anyone else did on a production car.

-Jeff

EDIT: I was writing this at the time of the above posting, so I didn't mean to go over anything that's already been said.

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Old May 11th, 2011, 07:55 PM   #14 (permalink)
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oh, and at least ONE person out there has already solved the equation apparently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=973F-...eature=related

And this one looks more like the parts you were contemplating as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsJV4...eature=related

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Old May 11th, 2011, 08:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
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GTI...were we typing our posts at the same time, lol! 10:1 + BOOST = NO WAY
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Old May 11th, 2011, 08:31 PM   #16 (permalink)
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GTI...were we typing our posts at the same time, lol! 10:1 + BOOST = NO WAY
E85 no problem but 15lbs of boost no way.

We made 801 HP with a mild 8.9 to one 454 at about 9 lbs of boost but the whole setup was built for forced induction
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Old May 11th, 2011, 08:49 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Interesting discussion.

Obviously, an 800hp engine has to be built like an 800hp engine in order to survive 800hp being pumped through it.

My question, though (and, no, I'm not about to "Buy It Now" on anything) is whether a reasonable person could bolt on a turbo that's set for low boost (say, 3-4psi), along with a cam, and get a significant increase in usable power (say, 100hp) without overtaxing a stock motor, and would the expenditure of time and money be worth it, or would they be better spent on more traditional mods?

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Old May 11th, 2011, 09:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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From what I have seen on other motors, (none of them Olds) that with those specs in mind at low boost, you could make it work. Trying to go much higher, and you'll be in serious trouble.

As far as cost outlay? Who knows. You might be able to make it work for a reasonable price, and at the very least you'll have something unique, and be very proud of it because you built it yourself. You didn't shell out big bucks to have someone else do it.

What would concern me (and I didn't think bout any of this in the earlier post) is that everything I have read here and elsewhere (keep in mind I haven't built or driven an Olds V8 in YEARS, but I have in the past...) The Olds oiling system is not reliable for high RPM's Anything over 6,000 RPM or thereabouts and you run into lubrication trouble on a stock motor, let alone a boosted one. That's why Mondello and others sell the oil restrictor plugs that put the oil pressure where you need it. Turbos Live & die by oil pressure. Lose that on a unit spinning 50K+ RPM's and you've cooked it, and possibly sent shrapnel down the carb too. In order to make it work reliably, I would suspect that something will have to be done to beef that up as well. Don't know if it will require a stand-alone oil system, or if it could be done off the stock pump/supply system, but it's another piece of the equation to consider as well for this type of application.

Geez, I'm bench (laptop?) building and racing tonight. Very fun to say "let's turbo it!" Start thinking about how to do it and there's all sorts of problems to consider, and that's just from knowing what you "might" be up against vs. putting it into practice.

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Old May 11th, 2011, 09:23 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I suppose my (entirely academic) thought would be, what if you used a relatively small turbo (narrow blower), which would, of course, increase flow resistance, but would also increase exhaust velocity through the blower, and used it to produce low boost for a motor running in the stock RPM band? In other words, if you limit the flow-through of the blower, it should spin up and provide usable boost at lower RPMs. If you kept to stock RPM parameters, you'd sacrifice the maximum power of a screamer, but you might gain usable power with less wear and tear and less need for beefing up the bottom end.

Or maybe not.

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Old May 11th, 2011, 09:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
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In theory that may work, but let's not forget that naturally aspirated engines, turbo engines, and super charged engines all use different cam profiles. While you may solve the RPM / oiling problem, you've got to have a cam profile that will allow the turbo to make boost (eliminate lobe overlap) and the question at the top of the thread is; can you bolt on a turbo to a stock engine and make 300 extra HP.

The answer is no.
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Old May 11th, 2011, 09:36 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I agree that it could be done along those lines of thinking. That's how most of the "homebrew" 4-cyl kits start out. Then you get to tuning and tweaking to get more power til something gives out. Fix the broken parts with something stronger and repeat the process til you run out of money, time, patience, etc. Either that, or you mangle the car due to not beefing up the suspension/brakes to match. It's a vicious cycle.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 12:22 AM   #22 (permalink)
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And remember guys, we are talking about small, cheap turbos. Some of the comments above are mentioning 800hp, as if these turbos are as powerful as a Paxton or Vortex. They aren't....these t3/t4 turbo's are tiny terrors.

And for the record....i'd be swapping my motor for a 455 as opposed to attempting this build. But this has been a really informative thread, just a cool idea to tinker with!!
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Old May 12th, 2011, 01:48 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Old May 12th, 2011, 04:46 AM   #24 (permalink)
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You might want to check out my twin turbo build thread. I am just starting the process. it will be a 375 cu in bored and stroked 350. I already have the 330 crank which was offset ground for the 3.5 inch stroke. I also have ordered my 1/2 inch thick exhaust manifold gaskets which I will make the turbo manifolds off of. To me the Olds is a perfect canidate for turbocharging. They are already low compression which is good. and they don't rev high so 2 small turbos would spool up quick and you shouldn't have to really worry about power dropping off with rpms as we don't rev them that high. Also I am not sure about that particular turbo manifold. I have been thinking about the square tubing. Which I had considered for the places coming off the exhaust ports as that is already square. But the problem I see is with heat expansion. A round tube will expand more evenly with the heating and coooling effects. A square tube I believe would be prone to cracks. I should have my flanges soon and will be making the manifolds with weld els so between them and teh 1/2 thick flange they should be very durable. If they come out nice I am considering selling them. Now do I think a stock engine could handle turbocharging? Yes and no. If the engine internals are all in great shape yes if on low boost. But a worn engine or to high a boost and it will be a problem. But that being said 5 lbs of boost would make a nice gain. Build the engine with better internals and higher boost and now you have something that will make a buch of power.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 05:52 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I did a duct-tape/homemade turbo conversion on my old VW Rabbit. The whole thing cost me $400. I think everyone including you agrees that going cheap isn't cool unless you don't care about the life of the engine.

One thing about my turbo conversion was that I adapted the ignition system to keep the spark advanced as much as possible. It had a knock sensor that would change the advance based on what it would "hear" in the engine. This way I was able to use regular gas if I wanted. When I used premium there was a noticeable increase in power.

If I was looking into a turbo for an olds, I'd definately be thinking of a custom EFI that would let me tune the engine and have more control of what's going on in the engine. But, of course, we're talking big money here.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 07:15 AM   #26 (permalink)
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You may want to check out http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/ You can spend hours reading up on the available turbo information. I have not built a turbo motor yet, but I have done a bit of research into it. You can turbocharge a stock motor without changing the cam, You will need to keep the power levels inline with what your stock motor can handle. It most definitely will not be 20 psi boost level or 300+ hp increase. Most stock motors would be more like the 5-6psi level. Unfortunately your motor is at 10:1 compression with, I'm assuming, iron heads. This isn't going to work too well on a turbo motor unless you are using methanol injection and a large intercooler. Check out the site. It's very informative. There are a few good books out on the subject also. I think they reference them on the site.

Tom
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Old May 12th, 2011, 07:50 AM   #27 (permalink)
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You may want to check out http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/ You can spend hours reading up on the available turbo information. I have not built a turbo motor yet, but I have done a bit of research into it. You can turbocharge a stock motor without changing the cam, You will need to keep the power levels inline with what your stock motor can handle. It most definitely will not be 20 psi boost level or 300+ hp increase. Most stock motors would be more like the 5-6psi level. Unfortunately your motor is at 10:1 compression with, I'm assuming, iron heads. This isn't going to work too well on a turbo motor unless you are using methanol injection and a large intercooler. Check out the site. It's very informative. There are a few good books out on the subject also. I think they reference them on the site.

Tom
Very good site. I don't post much there but I read and gather info there all the time.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 09:41 AM   #28 (permalink)
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You may want to check out http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/ You can spend hours reading up on the available turbo information. I have not built a turbo motor yet, but I have done a bit of research into it. You can turbocharge a stock motor without changing the cam, You will need to keep the power levels inline with what your stock motor can handle. It most definitely will not be 20 psi boost level or 300+ hp increase. Most stock motors would be more like the 5-6psi level. Unfortunately your motor is at 10:1 compression with, I'm assuming, iron heads. This isn't going to work too well on a turbo motor unless you are using methanol injection and a large intercooler. Check out the site. It's very informative. There are a few good books out on the subject also. I think they reference them on the site.

Tom
Well said.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 02:10 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Hot Rod did a couple of junkyard builds with a ebay turbo, turned out pretty good, I think they had their doubts about longevity.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 06:42 AM   #30 (permalink)
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here's a little update directly from the seller on ebay. i asked a question about a complete kit they had mentioned in the listing. the answer i got pretty much lays the whole situation out of what would be needed to complete the install. and the turbos they offer are adjustable w/ low PSI ratings. here is what they said:

"Hi, thanks for the question. As for our package deals we have a 750HP kit that includes the following. One pair Big Skippy's Turbo manifolds, One pair Big Skippy's 44mm mini wastegates (your choice of springs 5, 7, or 9PSI), One pair of 54MM Turbochargers, Big Skippy's 44MM Blow off Valve, Big Skippy's twin inlet Tig welded aluminum Carb. Hat, Big Skippy's custom Mandrel bent aluminum turbo to hat cold pipes, 6 Ply Silicone couplers, High quality stainless t-bolt clamps, Braided oil feed and drain hoses, and all fittings and weld bungs for oil drains. The total for the kit is 1750.00 plus shipping around 50.00. Other parts that you will need are downpipes, Blow-thru carburetor, boost referenced fuel supply. We are currently working on a single turbo kit estimated release time is mid June."

so, it would cost a bit more than i thought....plus as they mentioned, you would need a blow through carb that will run around $800, plus the down pipes, and a boost referenced fuel supply. so it looks like about a $3500 job, but still very cool. i will be keeping an eye out for the single turbo kit they are working on...that may be a more pheasable, inexpensive alternative to the twin turbo setup.
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Old June 8th, 2011, 03:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I have a book, "How to Select and Install Turbochargers", that has a twin-turboed 350 on the cover in a relatively stock car. Only problem: The book dates to 1971.
Still a rather interesting idea, but I'd go for a quadrajet before a turbo.
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Old June 8th, 2011, 03:27 PM   #32 (permalink)
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You guys want a twin-turbo small-block Olds?

My data is a couple years old, but back then it ran 6.59 @ 206 mph in a 1870 lb dragster. And there's more in it, as they were having a real tough time finding the right torque converter to match the turbo's characteristics.
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Old June 8th, 2011, 03:27 PM
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