W36 stripes at Seven Springs

[sixty9olds]

I have found the whole W36 stripe issue very interesting. Like others I have learned a lot about the '68 442 that I had no knowlege of prior to this post. I have a few questions about judging and points, I reviewed the OCA rules and didn't see anything specific about the points system. Let's say that the judges recogonized that the stripe was incorrect on a said car- what would be the points deduction? I was near the judges while they were milling over a unrestored car and talking about how many points to deduct for a damaged fender (about the size of the tip of your index finger). Also, how many judges are typically on the show field judging? Do they specialize in specific models or cover all entries and classes?

[WhatIf]

I'm new to this site and I am learning things all the time. While I am a 1970 442 fan, I did not know about the incorrect 68 442 stripe differences. Now what I have found over the years is that these judges at these big shows are familiar with the reproduction parts because their own car is loaded with reproduction parts! They see a car with original 1970 W30 inner fenders or W30 intakes and they think they are wrong because they appear different than the 15 other W-30 cars parked around it that all have the reproduction fenders and intakes. It is very frustrating for someone with an original car because they feel they need to explain to the judge what parts are correct and what parts are incorrect, and the judge should know that. I guess it;s because more newbies are getting into this hobby and they are enthusiatsic and want to be judges, but there needs to be standards and knowledge passed on as to what their looking at. Soon the only cars winning will be the ones with all reproduction parts and the original examples will be scored the lowest, and the owners of the originals will be left out in the cold.

Note - I have a friend with a 66 GTO and he said that PHS will still be around afetr Pontiac closes. Jim Mattson owns the PHS docuemtnation, not Pontiac.

[ent72olds]

Whatif, you put it perfectly....although I don't have the type of "points" cars everyone is talking about , I wouldn't mind having one one day! Although the "sport" is about having fun , making friends (and in some cases enemies), it is still a competition that those like you take a lot of pride in and work very hard at. You should be rewarded as such. There may be a time when the only pieces left are repops, but there will also always be original "unrestored" cars and expensive painstakingly restored cars with many honest hours of research and endless months and years in search of an NOS part and finally finding the "holy grail", or refurbished OEM parts, in these shows! I'm not knocking the guy who is restoring his car in his garage or barn because he loves this "sport", but can't afford to pay $100K for a "proper"restoration(actually, some of the best come from these places!) These are the people that keep this thing alive, not the millionaire at B-J....but IMO there is a time and place for those cars. Local shows etc....the Nats should be governed a certain way! The best of the best! I do understand that it is not easy to be a judge(I judge a Lion's Club car show every year of about 300 cars here on Long Island...supposed to be fun, but isn't), but this thing needs to be reeled in before it becomes a huge "local" car show. This is why when guys like Glen(n) (rocketraider), Padavano and Kurt(wmachine), I hope somebody is listening. Why can't they add classes that aren't as strict for the "not so correct" cars, and have the "serious" (might be a bad choice of words, not meant to offend) cars judged by the veteran judges? I know this would thin the classes down, and make more classes, but it would still be the same amount of cars....let me stop now before I either bore somebody to death or make some enemies...hope to see everyone in Sturbridge!

[WhatIf]

Since I'm new at this, is this 442 correct? I think I understand what has been said that the stripe should not touch the wheelwell scallop, so is this one incorrect?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Oldsm...fCarsQ5fTrucks

If possible, could someone post a pic of a correct stripe? Doesn't have to be their own car, just a picture of the right stripe. Thanks.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by WhatIf

Since I'm new at this, is this 442 correct? I think I understand what has been said that the stripe should not touch the wheelwell scallop, so is this one incorrect?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Oldsm...fCarsQ5fTrucks

If possible, could someone post a pic of a correct stripe? Doesn't have to be their own car, just a picture of the right stripe. Thanks.

Even before I went to that link, I was pretty certain that it would not be correct. It is not. Again, the factory W36 cars had the 442 emblems on the fenders moved closer to the door so that the stipe would be CENTERED at the bottom of the fender. There is an old photo on the first page of this thread that shows the correct stripe.

[67 Cutlass]

I went back to the post with the green car that has the correct stripe again. NOW I see the difference! It looks like correct placement would be closer to the door with the 442 emblem at the horizontal center of the fender. Does that sound about right Joe?

[wmachine]

Should be self explanatory

[WhatIf]

Joe and wmachine, thanks! That clears that up!

Question : Why aren't the 68 442 emblems in the same spot (farther back) for ALL the production models? Seems like such a subtle production line change for Olds to make to simply move the numerals an inch or two back for all 442's, then they could simply apply the stripe when necessary? Just curious.

Thanks again, great info!

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by WhatIf

Joe and wmachine, thanks! That clears that up!

Question : Why aren't the 68 442 emblems in the same spot (farther back) for ALL the production models? Seems like such a subtle production line change for Olds to make to simply move the numerals an inch or two back for all 442's, then they could simply apply the stripe when necessary? Just curious.

Thanks again, great info!

I've asked myself that same question, and I think it's purely a styling issue. On the non-stripe cars, the emblem is visually "centered" between the peak of the wheel opening and the leading edge of the door. On the stripe cars, the stripe dominates visually and thus the emblem needed to be moved to make the stripe centered. I've seen real W-36 cars where the stripe did not get put back on after the car was painted (there was one at Seven Springs) and it just doesn't look right with the emblem in the aft position and no stripe.

[agtw31]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

WHY OH WHY does everyone need to add W-36 stripes to cars that did not come with them?

there is somebody that has original w36 fenders with original paint with the stripe in the "wrong" position.im thinking they were reshot by a dealer,but you never know.


it probably has something to do with what they want to do with their cars,not really a need.

and they are their cars,to do with as they wish.

when they step out and put their car up for judging,then it is a different matter.

the 68 with the wrong placed stipes won it's class,so i guess that said something.

as for judging,it should be pretty simple:

whoever has the most burnt rubber on the quarter panel wins

[/

[ragtopblu]

I was at the Nats and was in the Street/Stock division. Now I do agree that the cars should be as they were from the showroom for the purists but I also think that you should be able to deviate from this to some degree without over stepping it IE 24/26" rims, and radical body changes. I have a 72 Cutlass Viking blue but with white 72 Hurst Olds stripping. And instead of matching SSII's to body color my rims were painted Argent Grey. I did replace parts with original parts whenever it was possible and hope I did the restoration with respect to Cutlassline of that year. I did not get best of class but was happy with a first place and it gives me something to strive for next year at Sturbridge.
One thing that did confuse was the first car judged in my division. The Judges asked him to close his hood and trunk, but did not request it from the rest of the cars in my division. As i was led to believe the action of the judges had to be consistant. The car that placed best in class was a nice car but the engine was rebuilt and when it was done the odometer was rolled back to "O" giving a false reading to the actual mileage of the car. It was a great show and I made many new friends which i do feel was most important.

[rocketraider]

Street Stock and Modified classes go by a different set of rules and are designed for folks who don't want to build their car back original. Two of the cars in 8A this year (Ninety Eights BTW) should by rights have been in Street Stock but owners didn't tell the host group they had aftermarket wheels and mods underhood till they got on the field, and by then too late.

Lately I've become a real stickler that cars entered in original classes (where the judging standard is AS THE CAR WOULD HAVE APPEARED IN THE SHOWROOM) should not have any visible modifications or alterations from that standard. That does not leave much wiggle room. Trouble is a lot of people are taking liberties in original classes and it's not being policed, nor is it being handled appropriately at the judging level.

I've also noticed a lack of consistency in judging. They wanted the hood etc closed to check fit/finish and panel alignment, but they should have done it on all cars in the class.

I made many new friends which i do feel was most important

Ragtop, you've hit on something that really is more important than a trophy.

[scr8p]

seven springs was my first oca nationals. i must say i was very surprised at how many cars had these stripes on their cars in the wrong position. as was stated earlier in this thread, there was only one correct car, and it wasn't even being judged.

in regards to the white 68..... yes, it was a nice car. but, to spend that kind of time and effort into restoring it, and then throw stpies on it where they obviously don't belong, made very little sense to me. in my eyes, it took away from how nice they car really was. and how many points were deducted because of that..... any? not just on that car, but all of them.

[wmachine]

The "wrong stripe" issue needs to be put in perspective when it comes to the judging. It is just a number of points off in one catagory, that's all. No different than having the wrong rocket emblem on the dash of the car, which if that were the case, we wouldn't even be talking about it. It is just that it's something highly visible that jumps out at you if you are aware of it. So it no more "disqualifies" a car from Best of Class than a wrong dash emblem. The car with the most points in the class is the Best in Class. It is that simple.
Nobody has even mentioned that the white Best in Class car has wheel trim rings that are not correct. To me, that is just as obvious to the trained eye. (In all fairness, they are closer than most and more hard to come by than correcting the stripe).
Of course Joe's original point was not judging, but just the widespread misapplication, even with the best of cars. But I'm equally dismayed that the BIC car was displayed as a "Sports Coupe" when it is actually a "Holiday Coupe".

[jeffreyalman]

I have read through all of this and am reminded of the emergency exit route that I saw on the interstate for trucks (follow me on this)

DEALER INSTALLED OPTIONS are allowed derivations.

That means any stripe, emblems, etc that could have been dealer installed at the time of purchase. At Dearborn, the judges were all wringing their hands about my hood ornament. After some very tense moments, they all agreed that if a customer walked into a showroom and would only buy an 88 convertible if it had a 98 hood ornament, the dealer would have installed it.

I can attest as the son of a former Cadillac dealer during that time we would have installed ANYTHING to move a car.

My only problem with any of this is the inconsistencies of the judges.

I have not seen my judging sheet yet, but will be very curious to compare it to last years.

[TK-65]

Originally Posted by rocketraider

Lately I've become a real stickler that cars entered in original classes (where the judging standard is AS THE CAR WOULD HAVE APPEARED IN THE SHOWROOM) should not have any visible modifications or alterations from that standard. That does not leave much wiggle room. Trouble is a lot of people are taking liberties in original classes and it's not being policed, nor is it being handled appropriately at the judging level.

This is a gorgeous 66 L69, which was sporting Hurst wheels. Hurst never was a OEM wheel on any car. Car was in stock 13A class. Small yet very visable deviation from stock. Beautiful car but technically not completly stock.

[jeffreyalman]

again, it could have been a dealer installed option

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by jeffreyalman

again, it could have been a dealer installed option

I disagree. In practice, the (Olds) dealer could have put a Hemi badge on a car if their customer wanted it. "Dealer Installed" in this case *should* be Oldsmobile options that a dealer installed, instead of being put on at the factory. Hurst wheels were *not* an Oldsmobile option, dealer or otherwise.

Raider, how should this situation be handled? How would (should) points be deducted for Hurst wheels?

[jeffreyalman]

this is one of the reasons that I am questioning the value I get from being a member of the OCA. I am not a fan of favoritism. If there are rules, they should be followed.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by rocketraider

Ragtop, you've hit on something that really is more important than a trophy.

X2 As Raider says, its not about the trophies. Yes there are the trophy hunters, always have been and always will be. But there are otherwise a lot of good people involved. OCA is a club of people, not cars. As much as I enjoy the cars, the details and all, if it weren't for the people, I wouldn't be involved.

[Jamesbo]

It's a wise man who knows the value of friends over gold [plated most likely]

[rocketraider]

By rights the Tropic Turquoise 66 convert should have been in Street Stock because of the repro Hurst wheels. Were I judging the car, I'd have probably dropped 5 to 7 points per wheel for them, total deduction 20 to 28 points out of 80 possible- a 25-30 % penalty. However, I would have noted on the judging sheet specifically why the deduction was taken with a recommendation to consider Street Stock class in future if the Hurst wheels remained on it.

It would have been hard for me to do it even then because of that car's overall quality, and the Hurst wheels just look right on it. It was the one car out of the whole showfield that really made me wish I owned it.

Jeff has a point. In those days, some dealers sold aftermarket stuff and with the Hurst shifter connection Olds had, it would have been a natural fit to offer Hurst wheels as a dealership installed option.

If you pushed it, I guess "showroom prepped appearance" could include a set of Hurst wheels if someone had had the foresight to keep the invoice. There would have been the indisputable documentation that the car was delivered with them.

But for now, as gawjus as that car is, I'd have dinged it on wheels/tires.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by rocketraider

By rights the Tropic Turquoise 66 convert should have been in Street Stock because of the repro Hurst wheels. Were I judging the car, I'd have probably dropped 5 to 7 points per wheel for them, total deduction 20 to 28 points out of 80 possible- a 25-30 % penalty. However, I would have noted on the judging sheet specifically why the deduction was taken with a recommendation to consider Street Stock class in future if the Hurst wheels remained on it.

It would have been hard for me to do it even then because of that car's overall quality, and the Hurst wheels just look right on it. It was the one car out of the whole showfield that really made me wish I owned it.

Jeff has a point. In those days, some dealers sold aftermarket stuff and with the Hurst shifter connection Olds had, it would have been a natural fit to offer Hurst wheels as a dealership installed option.

If you pushed it, I guess "showroom prepped appearance" could include a set of Hurst wheels if someone had had the foresight to keep the invoice. There would have been the indisputable documentation that the car was delivered with them.

But for now, as gawjus as that car is, I'd have dinged it on wheels/tires.

I have to agree with Glenn. That 66 was one of the most beautiful cars on the show field, but I maintain that it is more difficult to restore a car completely correct with factory parts than with aftermarket. This is a very slippery slope. For example, is a Nickey Chevrolet 427 Nova a "stock" automobile? It's not a COPO car, the engine was installed by the dealer. What about George Hurst's original 68 H/O with the 4 speed?

[ent72olds]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

... is a Nickey Chevrolet 427 Nova a "stock" automobile? It's not a COPO car, the engine was installed by the dealer. What about George Hurst's original 68 H/O with the 4 speed?

Ever hear of Baldwin Motion....

[TK-65]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

I have to agree with Glenn. That 66 was one of the most beautiful cars on the show field, but I maintain that it is more difficult to restore a car completely correct with factory parts than with aftermarket. This is a very slippery slope. For example, is a Nickey Chevrolet 427 Nova a "stock" automobile? It's not a COPO car, the engine was installed by the dealer. What about George Hurst's original 68 H/O with the 4 speed?

You really want to open a can of worms? How about Krytas experimental W31. I believe it was in the stock class also, or at least was in Dearborn last year.

[gearheads78]

This thread is the exact reason I build stuff how I want to and anyone can jump in a lake if they don't like it.

I have yet to see a totally original "restored" car. Truly original would mean bodies that with laquer not polished to perfection. It means factory distorted bumpers, it means visible lead seams, it means rockers and lower doors with visible spot welds all the down. I mean wavy bodies with die marks that you can see not modern primer blocked 4 times.
I could go on and on but you get the idea. These cars were so far from prefect on the showroom its not even funny.

[agtw31]

Originally Posted by jeffreyalman

this is one of the reasons that I am questioning the value I get from being a member of the OCA. I am not a fan of favoritism. If there are rules, they should be followed.

dont go to the Columbus OCA chapter meet,once you see what goes on there,youll give up your membership that day.

[sixty9olds]

I say make your car the way that YOU want it. If you enjoy a factory original (and I can truely respect what it takes to get one close to correct) then build or buy that. If you want a trailer queen with the under carriage painted to match the body, then do that. I think the great thing is that we all respect different levels of Oldsmobiles, and that we all realize that these cars are 20-50 years old (or more). I think it is a wonderful hobby with some great people in it. If anyone at the Nats had offered you a ride in their Oldsmobile, would you have turned them down? Me, I would have had the door open and been belted in the car before they could change their mind.

Go to the car shows, enjoy the time with your fellow hobbiest, and teach your children to appreciate automotive history.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by sixty9olds

I say make your car the way that YOU want it. If you enjoy a factory original (and I can truely respect what it takes to get one close to correct) then build or buy that. If you want a trailer queen with the under carriage painted to match the body, then do that. I think the great thing is that we all respect different levels of Oldsmobiles, and that we all realize that these cars are 20-50 years old (or more). I think it is a wonderful hobby with some great people in it. If anyone at the Nats had offered you a ride in their Oldsmobile, would you have turned them down? Me, I would have had the door open and been belted in the car before they could change their mind.

Go to the car shows, enjoy the time with your fellow hobbiest, and teach your children to appreciate automotive history.

Amen! Of course, my original post was not intended to get off into a discussion of judging. It was simply intended to be a comment on the apparent need of ever single 1968 442 owner to paint W36 stripes incorrectly on a car that was not equipped with them - and the irony that the only correct car at the meet was not being judged.

[Aron Nance]

Eric: Loved your '67 VC, saw it Friday (I think) just outside the ropes, full of STUFF! Man, proud of you, your wife, and two little ones for coming to the Nats, and hope to see you/meet you next year. Joe P, thanks for tracking me down, and sorry we didn't get to spend more time together. I will fly to Sturbridge in '10, so will find your car and pick your brain while there. All others that I met, (sorry, the grey matter is slipping, CRS) it was great, even with all the "things that went on" there, and there were several. I agree that we need to have some specific instruction on judging. Would be nice (with the internet, no publishing costs) to have rather specific things to look for, generally; then for each year's advisor to have a thread that one could go to to get into very specific areas on particular areas of interest during the judging process. If you were judging (and knew prior to going which class you would be judging), you could print it out before you left for the event. As it stands now (and this is a totally differenct attitude, for me, from my joining in 1994), the award/trophy/plaque is secondary (if that high); we go for the experience of being with other Olds lovers and seeing the gorgeous examples of REO's legacy, the trip, new/old friends, etc. Juju already talking about Sturbridge (reservations made, and she is making them for Reno right now). Totally off the subject, but had a grand time at the Nats. I AM TOTALLY IN SUPPORT OF DOING WHATEVER WE CAN TO MAKE THE JUDGING EXPERIENCE BETTER FOR ALL!

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by Aron Nance

Eric: Loved your '67 VC, saw it Friday (I think) just outside the ropes, full of STUFF! Man, proud of you, your wife, and two little ones for coming to the Nats, and hope to see you/meet you next year. Joe P, thanks for tracking me down, and sorry we didn't get to spend more time together. I will fly to Sturbridge in '10, so will find your car and pick your brain while there. All others that I met, (sorry, the grey matter is slipping, CRS) it was great, even with all the "things that went on" there, and there were several. I agree that we need to have some specific instruction on judging. Would be nice (with the internet, no publishing costs) to have rather specific things to look for, generally; then for each year's advisor to have a thread that one could go to to get into very specific areas on particular areas of interest during the judging process. If you were judging (and knew prior to going which class you would be judging), you could print it out before you left for the event. As it stands now (and this is a totally differenct attitude, for me, from my joining in 1994), the award/trophy/plaque is secondary (if that high); we go for the experience of being with other Olds lovers and seeing the gorgeous examples of REO's legacy, the trip, new/old friends, etc. Juju already talking about Sturbridge (reservations made, and she is making them for Reno right now). Totally off the subject, but had a grand time at the Nats. I AM TOTALLY IN SUPPORT OF DOING WHATEVER WE CAN TO MAKE THE JUDGING EXPERIENCE BETTER FOR ALL!

Aaron, I couldn't have said it better, and put it all into perspective the way you did.
I would like to add that the *main* reason to work on the judging has nothing to do with trophies or who gets what. The main reason is to educate us (OCA and the Oldsmobile community) as to what really is original, correct, etc. This history is already becoming lost and/or distorted. As my friend Ron Forsee would say, we are suffering from "truth decay". We need to pool our resources and preserve Oldsmobile history.

[ent72olds]

Being that this thread won't die, how about this one Joe!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Outst...%3A10%7C39%3A1

[agtw31]

just another uneducated flipper calling themselves "restorers".

this is the knife that is being stuck in ebay,and they wont take it out.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by ent72olds

Being that this thread won't die, how about this one Joe!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Outst...%3A10%7C39%3A1

Well, the good news is that the fender emblems are in the correct place for a W36 car. The bad news is that the stripe was painted too wide (the outside of the outer pinstripes should be even with the edges of the 4 and the 2). Of course, this "factory original" car also has the one-of-none four spoke wheel for 1968.

[TK-65]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

Well, the good news is that the fender emblems are in the correct place for a W36 car.

Take another look.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by TK-65

Take another look.

AH, too high (but at least closer to the door).

But the ad SAYS it's "factory original". The wouldn't lie, would they???

[scr8p]

i was looking through my nats pics and noticed this 68. it has the correct 442 placement, but no stripes.

actually, this might be a 69. someone correct me if i'm wrong.

[ent72olds]

Now that everyone who uses this site knows all about these stripes and numeral placement, they look to be placed in the correct spot, but not for w36 option....as for the rest of the stripes?

[vista461]

Originally Posted by scr8p

i was looking through my nats pics and noticed this 68. it has the correct 442 placement, but no stripes.

actually, this might be a 69. someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Well the front is 68 anyway

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by scr8p

i was looking through my nats pics and noticed this 68. it has the correct 442 placement, but no stripes.

actually, this might be a 69. someone correct me if i'm wrong.

This is the car that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread as the one car on the showfield that had the emblems in the right place and ironically did not have the stripes. I spoke to the owner, nice guy but he wanted this paint job.