navvet

Drove in a parade Sunday..great fun. I had 1/2 dozen guys tell me to use tranny fluid in gas tank instead of lead substitue. They all had classics and even had some classic tractor guys tell me the same.
Sorry if this is a question asked before....did try to find a post but found nothing.

MDchanic

Why?

For that matter, why are you using a "lead substitute"?

I see no reason to add anything to gasoline, unless you have a high compression engine that really needs extra octane.

- Eric

aliensatemybuick

Sure, why not? In fact, even better to use used fluid. Its cheaper, and then you don't have to worry about recycling it. Can get rid of used oil that way too.

rket56

Apparently Eric is not aware that the lead was used not only for octane but for valve wear. The following info was lifted from another web site and explains it much better. "Tetraethyl lead works as a buffer against microwelds forming between the hot exhaust valves and their seats. Once these valves reopen, the microwelds pull apart and leave the valves with a rough surface that would abrade the seats, leading to valve recession. When lead began to be phased out of motor fuel, the automotive industry began specifying hardened valve seats and upgraded exhaust valve materials to prevent valve recession without lead." Chuck

rustyroger

You are quite correct Chuck, but for gentle use such as going to your local cruise-in it's not as big a deal as some would have you believe.
If you are making long trips at highway speeds or using the cars performance potential to its capacity that's another matter altogether.


There is a thread from way back discussing the use of unleaded gas and the use of additives, I believe it is titled something like "Lead in fuel, the myths exposed" or something along those lines.


Does transmission fluid have tetraethyl lead in it?. Are there other sources of lead or other chemicals with valve protecting properties that come from unexpected sources?.


Roger.

nsnarsk65cutlass

I would not put atf in my fuel tank,unless it was an older diesel.It would be the main source of fuel.In a an older gas engine i see no benefit whatsoever unless for bug spraying.Nick

jensenracing77

If you want to run an additive then ATF is just fine and much less money. Like others have said, I wouldn't bother if you are not on the highway on a regular basis.

Sampson

Back in the day I worked for a shop that poured a qt of tranny fluid down the carb on every tune up they did. Rev the engine to about 3500 and gradually pour the fluid in. Claimed it broke down the carbon in the cylinders. This shop was in southern Florida. I suspect the real reason for the practice was mosquito control.

MDchanic

Eric is well aware of that, in theory, but in practice, it ir irrelevant in the vast majority of cars.

This has been discussed repeatedly on here, and the consensus is that unless you're exclusively racing, or towing a heavy trailer in hilly country, you do not need lead for your valves.

I have disassembled several Olds motors and never seen any valve recession on any of them. More to the point, a few months ago, I swapped my heads, and the #5 heads on my completely original 1968 350 with 106,000 miles has no recession whatsoever.

A good discussion on the subject is here.

Others are here, here, and here.

- Eric

wmachine

No, it is not crazy. It is all about addressing upper cylinder lubrication. Which is one of the things lead did. Marvel Mystery Oil was used for decades for this purpose and it is closer to transmission fluid than anything. As you can see, there are some strong opinions that you may not need any upper cylinder lubrication. But that opinion is certainly not shared by everyone. So you need to make up your mind what's right for you.

hookem horns

Why not add 2-stroke oil since it was made to be mixed with gas....or wait, we are talking about 4-strokes. Maybe there are outlier applications where this will help but sounds like a recipe for smoky exhaust and fouled plugs to me.

TripDeuces

I doubt the octane value of ATF is anywhere near gasoline and any benefit gained by 'upper cylinder lubrication' would be more than offset by the potential damage due to possible detonation. Heard or otherwise. The crown of the piston is the smallest diameter of the piston. What exactly are you lubricating? The crown should never contact the piston walls which is evident when looking at an engine with the heads off. Wear stops at the top ring land. So once again what exactly are we lubricating? Other than the manufacturers pockets.
As far as the lead thing I used Amoco lead free gas for decades and never had a problem with my valves. Amoco was lead free before lead free became a catch phrase. My valves never receded into the seats and the valves and seats looked like new on tear down. Stop believing the hype out there, it's a load of crap.
Same thing goes with those gasoline extenders. Never had a problem with old gas either. I'm talking years old too, not just one season.
Eric has this correct.

oldcutlass

I use a pint of trans fluid or MMO in a full tank of fuel about 4 times a year. It does clean things up, but not much of an octane booster.

jensenracing77

lol, If you added enough to make it smoke you added WAY to much.

oldstata

x2

navvet

Bottom line is I want to use ATK (as I do lead substitute) for lubrication. I did have a 70 plymouth satelite and never used lead sub or other potential fluids and engine had valve and head problems . Having said that, the 64 88 is driven 90% for short drives and one or two 100mile plus drives every summer. The engine is running great and has great power...just would feel like a smuck if I did not do the basic preventative actions to avoid major engine issues. I change oil every year and change gas filter the start of every year ( because I can). Lead substitue has been easy to get but with the new info and advice I though I would try the ATF...but wanted some feedback. I may in the end keep using the lead every 4th tank and use the old adage: if it ain't broke then don't fix it!!! GREAT OPINIONS

Tedd Thompson

I have run a sbc (327 high compression ) in my Landcruiser for 20 years with no additives and no problems.

My feelings for what its worth are if the engine started off life with leaded gas and then was switch to non leaded it will run for years on the residual lead pounded in to the seats. If I was to grind the valves for some reason I would have a three angle harden valve job done and go on with my life....Just my thoughts...Tedd

Mark57

I have been using Lucas fuel treatment for a while now in all my vehicles and have noticed a slight increase in MPG and the motor seams to run well with it. According to my mechanic todays fuel leaves a lot of gunk residue in throttle bodies and highly recommended this product to combat it. It also is used as a lead substitute.
http://www.lucasoil.ca/products/fuel-treatments.asp

navvet

Good point MARK57. Todays crap in the fuel worries me. When I filled up to head home The pump had a big sign stating 14% ETHENOL!!! Crap!!!!. So again does ATF help lubricate equal to Lead substitue and NOW does it help remedy the ethenol and water found in my tank.

rustyroger

Unless you are running carburettors or have old fashioned throttle body injection how does fuel get near the throttle body?.


Roger.

lazy394

shouldn't we leave the 2 stroke fuel to the rotary guys?

rustyroger

Water will do this much cheaper. It doesn't have any insect repelling properties though.


Roger.

facn8me

Just going to stir the pot a little. Regardless of who is giving you advice as to what you don't need...... Dollar to a donut not one of them will pony up any money if you suck a valve up in the head. I actually drive my car. This means driving on the highway. Idling in traffic with the air on and long drives on occasion. $3 a fill up is cheap insurance.

MDchanic

I take mine on the highway. Six hour drives, no problem.

And no lead additive.

But if you want to add one, it's your car.

- Eric

facn8me

So how much $$$ are you in for if something does happen MD?

MDchanic

You're trolling.

That's pretty bold for a member with nine posts.

- Eric

facn8me

I expected nothing less. Thanks.

Tedd Thompson

I don't see a long happy life on here for you with that attitude....Tedd

oldcutlass

Bottom line, it will not damage your engine. This has been done by people for last 50 years. Quit the doom and gloom. Back during WWII when gas was being rationed, people ran their engines on kerosene.

navvet

again....I am confident with lead substitute and if ATF potentially does the same (whether needed or not) and if ATF does not harm the engine can I use ATF in place of lead sustitute.
I am going to continue using lead sustitue regardless of opinions...but CAN I use ATF as a substitute??????

TripDeuces

Where did you hear that ATF has any properties like a lead substitute? You won't find anything of that nature in ATF. Marvel Mystery Oil is probably the closest thing to ATF that anyone markets as being added to your fuel. Here is their pitch from their website.

ADDED TO GAS OR DIESEL
• Marvel Mystery Oil® lubricates the entire fuel system-fuel pumps, fuel injectors or carburetors and the top portion of the cylinders. These are areas, that by design, motor oil does not reach. Using Marvel Mystery Oil in your fuel extends the life of these vital components by providing them with lubrication that fuel alone does not provide.
• Marvel reduces and prevents varnish and gum build-up, two key contributors to robbing engine performance. When you shut off your engine, a miniscule drop of fuel is left at the tip of the fuel injectors or carburetor jets. This miniscule drop off of fuel then solidifies into a varnish type residue. Over time, the accumulated varnish blocks the openings of the injectors or jets, contributing to lower performance and fuel economy and shorter life of these components.
• Spark plug life is also extended by using Marvel in your fuel. It creates a cleaner burning cylinder environment that reduces carbon build-up on spark plugs resulting in better firing plugs that increase performance and durability.
• In addition, Marvel Mystery Oil® improves fuel mileage by reducing internal friction in the engine.
• Marvel should be used in the fuel at every fill-up. Use 4 ounces for every 10 gallons of fuel.


Not one word on being a lead substitute. You're comparing apples and oranges and wasting your money I might add. But it's your money

lazy394

I would be concerned with the residue and carbon build up from ATF.
Unleaded fuels are a lot more abrasive, but its their fast hot burn that does the damage.
If you use the ATF chances are you will have to decoke the head as im guessing it will end up looking like a head that's come off a motor with worn rings. My 2 bobs worth

MDchanic

If there is no agreement or consensus on whether lead is useful or helpful, I doubt you will find an authoritative answer to this question.

Can you? Sure. You just talked to a bunch of people who do.

- Eric

TripDeuces

Not wanting to start anything here but I'd love to see a modern gasoline engine run on kerosene. Kerosene is closer to diesel fuel than gasoline and as such the compression in a modern gasoline engine would be to high and cause preignition. Kerosene has a octane rating somewhere in the vicinity of 1/4 of gasoline. The other part of that is fuels like kerosene need to be vaporized (turn into a gas) in order to combust and that means it has to be hot to start with. I modern day fuel injection system or carb would only atomize the mixture (make it into small droplets) and that would not be sufficient for combustion.
That being said if you started the gas engine with gasoline and allowed it to get hot I imagine then you could introduce kerosene and get it to keep running. But the compression would still have to be reduced.

wmachine

It does not have to mention lead. It is actually more specific about what it does, and part of what lead does was add upper cylinder lubrication.
It is not a total lead substitution as it does not boost octane, and it does not claim to do that. Anyone that understands what lead does would know that MMO is indeed a lead substitute for upper cylinder lubrication.

There is plenty of information out there about upper cylinder lubrication, the what's and why's.
He's a good piece on gas in a pretty concise form.
http://www.39olds.com/lubrication.htm

You'd think that would be the sensible thing thing to do.

MDchanic

Kurt. Really?

This is a blurb from a kitchen-sink chemical company trying to sell its products.

Their web site is also laid out like a four year old (or a conspiracy theorist) put it together.

"For those who don't remember, lead is not found in gasoline in its normal state. It was added to the fuel so that as the fuel was burned in the cylinder, the molten lead would coat the valves, rings and cylinder walls with a flash coating. This was done to reduce wear on these various engine components and it worked." [color is the author's]

This statement above is essentially inaccurate.
Tetraethyl lead was discovered and developed in the early 1920s, and was added to increase octane, NOT for upper cylinder lubrication, which was a happy byproduct. As mentioned in an earlier post, although tetraethyl lead was used up until the 1980s, when its inclusion in fuel sold for use on public highways was phased out (you can still get leaded gas for marine and aviation uses), Amoco sold unleaded gasoline for decades with NO observed ill effects on engines that used it throughout their service lives.

Yes, there is information available on the internet, but I would not settle for non-sourced, inaccurate sales mumbo jumbo.

If you follow the links I posted earlier, there is some better information there from the SAE. There is also a paper out there somewhere from the EPA, which I found once, but I can't recall where now.

- Eric

oldcutlass

As the OP asked a 2 part question, no it is not a lead substitute. Yes, it is a lubricant and cleaner and will not harm your engine. There is only 1 product that has real lead in it called Kemco Octane Supreme.

MDchanic

Exactly. It really works, too. It's the real deal. I've used it.

- Eric

wmachine

Yes, really, Eric. My point was the lead was added for 2 reasons. I don't care if you call it a "happy byproduct" or whatever you want. It served that purpose. I know there a lots of info out there (as I said) and I was not taking the time to find the best, just something that addressed the upper cylinder lubrication. I did not mean that the article was totally correct, and I'm sorry that was misleading.

rustyroger

When my father started work on farms in the late '30s a lot of tractors ran on Tractor Vapourising Oil (TVO), which was essentially kerosene, or paraffin this side of the pond.
They were spark ignition engines, you started them on gasoline, and as they warmed up the TVO was heated by the exhaust manifold to vaporise it, then the engine was switched over to run on it.
These engines had something like 4.5-5:1 compression ratio, after WW2 they were superseded by diesel engines.
I remember Dad telling me how they would heat up the manifolds with blowtorches to get them to run on TVO as quickly as possible during the war years, gasoline was very strictly rationed and was a very precious commodity.


Roger.