wynnron

Guys (and Gals) - I have a special opportunity and request for help. Please bare with me as I give you a little background:


I am a car guy and everyone at my workplace knows that. I received an email from "Alison", an assistant in our accounting department yesterday. I don't know Alison very well but I do know that she is relatively young (30 something) and that a couple of years ago, her husband died suddenly. I don't know the details but I do know that she has a 6 year old son.


Anyway, her email said she had a 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass that was her husband's project and was wondering if I could help her put a value on it for selling purposes. I stopped by her desk to gather info which is not much at this point. All she knows is that it is a "big block" and that he had just had it painted before he died. The interior still needs to be done and the front fenders are off the car. She feels sure all the parts are there. She doesn't know if there are any records or documentation but will check. As we were talking, I could see her get choked up a couple of times and her eyes welled up.


So, she piqued my interest, I want to help her, the research is fun to me and I hope to learn something along the way. In no way am I looking to profit from this situation, but I do want to help her get the most that she can for her family.


Like I said, I'm a car guy but not really a "vintage" car guy. So I am reaching out to this forum for help.


The first thing I think needs to be determined is "What is it?" Is it something special (4-4-2, Hurst/Olds) or is it a plain vanilla Cutlass with a "big block" placed in it.


Alison sent me some pics last night (see below) and I am going to try to go by there today.


My question for you guys is "what do I look for and where on the car" so that I can take the info back and do some research or maybe even report back to this post.


I assume the VIN is the first place to start, but what other data can I collect after that.


Does that make sense? Can you help? Thank you in advance!


Ron

1970cs

Yes, VIN will help to see if it is a real big block car! Also the cowl tag will determine some info too.

Pat

wynnron

Cool. Thanks Pat. Can you tell me where to find the cowl tag and what it looks like? Should I be looking for a number stamped on the engine and if so, where would it be?


R

1970cs

Yellow circle area.

Pat

1970cs

It should look like this!

wynnron

Perfect. Thanks!


Do you know where to find the number on the engine...to confirm if it is "numbers matching"?

1970cs

I would not get to serious about numbers matching just yet. VIN with U or X would then dictate looking at the pad by cylinder #1 on the block. That and the transmission should partial match to VIN#

X=442 W-30 package only
U= 455 4bbl.

Pat

MDchanic

Okay first off, before you get all bent out of shape, Ron, that's not a big block, it's a small block.

The engine number, which would have to match the numerical portion of the VIN to be original, should be here:




The heads will have large numbers (probably "7") cast into the left side of each head (front on the driver's side, rear on the passenger side).


Post photos of all of the things that you see, so that we can decode them.

Welcome to ClassicOlds.

- Eric

wynnron

Yea, I understand what you mean. Its just that I am driving 30 miles to go look at the car for her...so I wanted to get as much info in one trip as I could. Otherwise, in the unlikely event that the VIN reveals the car is something special, then I'd be heading back over to see if it were numbers matching!


Thanks so much for your help!


R

wynnron

Eric thank you!


I am heading over in an hour or so. Interesting that it isn't a big block. I'll be sure to take pictures to share.


R

MDchanic

Here are some of John's excellent pictures:

#7 Head:

PA221842.jpg


Engine casting number:

PA221837.jpg

PA221840.jpg


- Eric

Allan R

VIN that starts with 3F is a base Cutlass.
VIN that starts with 3G is a Cutlass S

Both of those models used the H code 350 2bbl as the standard engine in 72. The engine casting for an Olds 350 is 395558-2.

Eric and PAt have you covered with vin derivative and cowl tag.

MDchanic

And here's an annotated version of one of John's pictures:



- Eric

Olds442redberet

I am sure you already know this but I'll remind you anyway:
1. Take a lot of pictures
2. Inventory the new parts (if any) that are with it.
3. Check for reciepts for any work done. If that's a quality paint job from a reputable paint shop and it can be verified, that'll help out a lot in raising the value of the car.
4. Do get the numbers off of the block and heads.
5. Insure you don't miss any numbers on the dash vin. Sometimes the first number is hiddin up underneath the pastic trim guard that surrounds the vin.
6. Confirm the title is in her name and she can sell the car. Sometimes there is a process to go through if the car is still in the husbands name.

Where is the car located, city and state. Maybe someone here, including me, might be interested in the car.

Good luck

wynnron

Thank you everyone. I'm about to head out. I'll check in afterwards. Ron

wynnron

I'm back and here is a quick summary of what I learned...


The VIN is 3F87H2R155455
The # on the engine, top front center, right behind the water pump, is 395558 followed by a larger "2".
The number on the left side (towards the front) on the driver's side head is "6".


The paint job is only fair. The body work underneath the paint job is not great quality. The floor pans look good and solid. The dash looks good and solid and I didn't observe any cracks. The front seats looked like a "split bench" and the upholstery was white or off-white. The engine had what looked like new flat black headers which fed into dual exhaust. The tires looked relatively new. All the glass is there and in good shape. The front fenders and hood are off the car, freshly painted and look good. The bumpers are off the car. The rear is better shape with better chrome. The front would need re-chroming but looked serviceable. I couldn't get into the trunk so there may be some stuff in there. I couldn't find the door panels but they may be in the trunk.


I told her what MDchanic said about the small block and she didn't dispute...she could have easily gotten that mixed up...you know, maybe he said he wanted a big block or something and she remembered it wrong.


She hasn't found the records yet but she said he was pretty meticulous about files and such in their home remodeling business, so she will keep looking.


I'll post some pics in a little bit. I have to get them out of my phone, which I ended up using because my camera decided it didn't want to work today. I'll add any thing else I think of then.


So, based on the numbers, can ya'll tell what it is?


Thanks a bunch!


Ron

joe_padavano

Ron,

We will BEAR with you, but if you want to get naked, you're on your own...

From the VIN, the car is a 1972 base Cutlass HT built in the Arlington, TX assembly plant. The original engine was a 350 2bbl single exhaust motor. Nothing special or valuable.

The "6" on the head is a 1970 head, so either the heads or the complete motor have been swapped at some point. Obviously it has an aftermarket intake and carb. The A/C compressor hardware is missing. The car has been taken apart an put back together, so you don't really know what's been done to it. The biggest consideration for value will be the condition of the sheet metal and the lack of rust.

Allan R

It's a base Cutlass, not a Cutlass S. The VIN shows it to be a 350 2BBL which is also consistent with the block number casting. The car was built in Arlington TX. Heads are from a 1970 Olds 350.

As it sits and what you've described, it doesn't sound like more than a plain Jane driver. The block likely was painted the same color as the car to create a theme, but the proper color should be Olds gold. Dual exhaust/headers are obviously an add on, since the H code engine was a single exhaust.

wynnron

Joe - yes, I always get that wrong and no I will not be getting naked...Its about 30 degrees out there! Thanks for the info. Greatly appreciated.


Alan thank you.


More pics later but here is the cowl tag...


Ron

wynnron

More pictures

scott_442

Sounds we've all become obsessed with the big block, fire breathing, numbers matching, every bolt correctly torqued and finished, spit shine, original air in the tires and bugs on the windshield mentality, 442, W30, yada, yada. Do I wish I owned one? Hell yeah I do. But, to me, any 40+ year old car that is still getting down the road on its own power is special and valuable. Lets keep things in perspective and encourage the preservation and pride of ownership of all Oldsmobile's, museum quality or project cars, owned by former GM line workers or the kid bagging groceries at the local supermarket...there is room in this hobby for everyone. Still waiting for the first positive comment about the effort Ron is putting forth to assist someone in need.

wynnron

And more pics...

wynnron

I'll stop there but I have more pics if anyone is interested. It is wonderful that we can reach out to strangers for help and get such a great response. Thank you again. I am going to try to assess some value to suggest to Alison and maybe help her sell it. Any suggestions are welcome. You may see me back here, or at least in the classified section.


Ron

MDchanic

For starters, CollectorCarMarketReview says that a '72 Cutlass 2-door hardtop with a 350 is worth roughly $700 in #5 condition, $2,500 in #4, $6,450 in #3, $9,275 in #4, and $14,575 in #1 condition.

- Eric

1970cs

Jess! that cowl tag that I posted was very close to what you came up with!
Since there was some issue with beating you up
It's a terribly noble thing that you have done for this single mother.

For what I have seen, "if totally complete" yet needs more work, does it run at least? maybe around 4k? tops.

Pat

Allan R

Ron, the information on the cow tag translates as follows:
ST 72 - 1972 model production
3 - Oldsmobile Division
32 - Cutlass (base model)
87 - 2 door hardtop
R - Arlington Fisher Body Works (where car body was built - note this is not the final assembly line)
BDY 03734 - body number assigned by Fisher Body Works
TR 917 White interior
A52 - front bench seat
PNT 75 A - Matador Red with white vinyl roof
01D - time build code. 4th week of January 1972
392 - Fisher body works coding - no significant value.

It appears the car was being restored to the original color with some minor mods the hubby wanted to personalize it. No problem with that because it's all just cosmetic.

The engine/trans may or may not be original but that's up to the next owner to determine if they want to keep or replace.

The downside to the car right now is it isn't assembled and I'm not sure what a buyer would be willing to pay for a partly done car, especially since they don't know what has been done or not to the motor.

Given the overall condition of the car as it sits (needs a lot of assembly and wiring from the pics) I think she may take a bit of a hit on valuation.

Is the car something she actually wants to sell? Reason I ask is that maybe she would consider it a tribute to her hubby if she could find someone to put it back together and keep it for her son to enjoy when he gets to driving age? On the other hand if she wants to sell because she needs the money or the car keeps her from moving on with her life I'm sure she will be able to get around between 2500 - 4000 (based on NADA classic car guide) for it. Looks like the body work is done, just finishing interior and final assembly?

Biggest question is - Does she have title to the car, or can she get it? Without that its just a parts car

joe_padavano

Not at all. My pet peeve is owners who watch too many auction shows on cable and think any P.O.S. is worth a million bucks. Just browse ebay ads, where every small block 2bbl A-body car is advertised as a "muscle car". This particular body combo (3F87H2...) was THE bottom of the line Oldsmobile for the 1972 model year. In a different model year (the 1972 model year had a lot of "funny" nomenclature issues), this would have been an F-85. This was the loss leader that brought buyers in the door at dealerships. That's not intended to be a commentary on what it might be worth to someone today, just a statement of fact.

I do want to point out that these comments are not intended to apply to the O.P., who I realize is just the messenger, not the owner or seller.

wynnron

Allan - Yes she does have the title but it is in her husbands name. I sure this is something the DMV has to deal with all the time and that a death certificate should get the title transferred to her without a problem. I think it would be pretty cool for her to restore the car and keep it for her son like you suggest but my guess is it is more than she can handle and would be a complicated venture in an already complicated life.


Joe - thanks for your help. If I communicated that the owner thought this was some kind of goldmine, that would be my fault. That was not her attitude at all. She has had various people show interest and only is seeking advice on what would be a fair price. She has no idea if the car is worth $500 or $5,000 and it was never the point to get rich, just understand the value.


Such an incredible amount of info in such a short amount of time. I truly am amazed at this forum and how helpful it can be.


Ron

Olds442redberet

I've bought a lot of Cutlass cars over the last two years and here's my two cents for what it's worth.
I am buying parts cars for $2000 to $3000. These are complete cars that do not run. They are usually bucket seat cars with complete interiors and have unbroken center consoles. I bought a base model Cutlass with a bench seat a couple months back for $1500. I believe there is a strong possibility someone may come along and pay as much as $4500 for it. I would advertise it at $4800 and see what kind of bites I got on it. I wouldn't sell it for less than $3600. That's my selling price. If I were buying the car I wouldn't pay more than $2500 for it. That's my buying price. The low buying price is due to the fact that the paint isn't excellent and I would have to answer every buyer's questions concerning the paint. Also It needs to be put together, I am sure there are some missing parts, there always are with project cars.
These cars are great cars and they are going up in value. Based on what you have said, she has a very nice car. I like it. I hope she does well with the sell.

wynnron

Thank you for the pricing advice O442rb.

Someone asked where the car was and I forgot respond earlier...

We are in Atlanta Georgia.

Ron

Olds442redberet

I've bought a lot of cars from that area. I picked up a 70 Convertible from Covington just last week. And a 1970 four door cutlass just last month.

I am in Birmingham, Alabama

wynnron

Olds442redberet - I told Alison about you and how you buy these cars. She would be interested in selling it to you. Are you interested? Can I send you an email?

Thanks.

Ron

Olds442redberet

Ron,

Please PM me the info.

Thanks
Tom

wynnron

OK I sent it this morning. Let me know.


R

Olds442redberet

Thanks

wynnron

To put an end to the story...We (Alison and I) met Olds442RedBeret at Alison's house yesterday where he bought the car and we helped him load it up on his trailer. Alison was relieved that she didn't have to go out to the market (i.e. Craigslist) and that she was able to deal with someone who we "met" on this forum. Olds442 seemed genuinely pleased when he finally got to see the car first hand. We also had two other guys there to help us push the car up onto the trailer and load parts into the truck. All said, I can't imagine how this could have been any more safe and pleasant, given the circumstances. Olds442 was a pleasure to work with and made the transaction quick and easy. Thank you all. This experience in total is a credit to the vintage Oldsmobile community.


Sincerely, Ron

Olds442redberet

As Ron mentioned, I bought this car. We struck a deal late last week and I picked it up yesterday. This was by far the easiest car I've picked up over the last year while yet still being one of the most difficult cars I've bought. Ron's description was spot on and he did most, if not all of the negotiations for Allison. This help out tremendously as this transaction was a delicate one. There was a lot of visible attachment to the car.
Ron went far and above by staying in contact with me throughout the process and taking time from his busy work schedule to be there when I picked up the car. With help from Ron and two of his friends we had the car, along with all of the parts loaded up in no time at all.
It was appaerant that Allison's husband was a fellow Oldsmobile fanatic and he poured his heart and sole, along with a lot of money into his Cutlass. But being an unfinished plain Jane with a bench seat it didn't really justify a huge investment on my part. We've all been there. At least I have. So I definitely have sympathy for Allison.
I'll start another thread next week with details on what I have. But here are some pictures of the car after being loaded up on the trailer. The hood and fenders are wrapped up in blankets and sitting in the back of the truck. And they made it home without getting damaged.

Allan R

Great to see everything worked out. Win Win situation.
Tom, looking at the pic - the rad support is from a 71. The rest of the car looks really nice. Where did you put the front clip?

sammy

Congrats Tom!....any plans for it?

Olds442redberet

The front clip was loaded into the back of the pick-up truck. And it made it home without getting scuffed up. I wrapped the hood and fenders up with shipping pads.

Thanks for the info on the radiator support. I didn't know. What’s the difference?

The car is made up of parts from several cars. I have noticed a couple of oddities on this car. It has plastic rear seat armrest and a metal grille, both of which I've never seen before.

As for my plans, I'll need a week to figure out which way I'll go with this one. I am on the fence right now. It has lots of good metal but the paint isn't all that great. Underneath that shiny exterior is some very shoddy prep work.