350 to 455

[70cutty]

I'm considering a engine swap, but I'm undecided whether I should just upgrade my 350 or buy a 455. I found couple of nice engines for about $500-700. My cutlass S is all original (besides suspension and couple of things on the engine) original paint, interior etc. 42,357 documented miles. It's a weekend driver and I'll never race it but I would like more power.

Any opinions????

[70cutty]

Guess Not

[2blu442]

For what it's worth with that low of miles I'd be tempted to just leave it the way it is if it's still nice. There's not many cars left that don't have something hacked on them. Then purchase a different one to build into a fun car, maybe something with nice sheetmetal but worn drivetrain. But I also feel my skin crawl when people take 442's and build something to take to the drag strip. It's your car so you can do whatever you want but that's my thoughts. If you do decide to build it there is a following for both the small block and the big block. I'd go with the 455, but there's other guys on this site who've built 350's and been very happy with them. John

[z11375ss]

You have a dillema. A good one but a dillema just the same. You have a fine running small block and are looking for more power. I have had both a 455 and a 350. I did like the 455 more but I didn't replace a small block with it. My advice to you is not to change the motor. Why don't you look into a blow through supercharger. Not running too much boost you could do it and retain the originality and drivability of the car. Any thing can be done. Fabrication would probably be the rule here although someone may make a kit for your application. I have had one of these on one of my trucks and found them to be reliable and powerful. If you go with the 455 you'll have to change the front springs, radiator, and many other things you never even thought of. Good luck! Oh yeah, Nitrous anyone?

[J-(Chicago)]

Just keep fogging it for more power, and once it blows up, you have an excuse for the BBO lol.

[redoldsman]

If you decide to go with a 455, keep the 350 and store it properly. Personallly, I think the first thing to do is make sure it is tuned up if you haven't already. A nice set of duals if you don't already have them, a HEI ignition or conversion, maybe a mild cam and a Performer RPM manifold and keep the Q-Jet if it has one. If it is a 2 barrell, put a Q-Jet on. The one thing that will really help is probably a change in gears. You probably have 2.73's which are good for mileage but not performance. There are tons of things you can do to the car but this is a starting point. I would be reluctant to change anything on this car you could not change back. Just my opinion.

[70cutty]

PARTS.JPG Picture 134.JPGPicture 106.JPG


Thank you for the advice, I decided to keep my small block for the originality.
Almost a month later and after a lot of long nights and I don't know how many 12-packs these are the upgrades.

Block was honed and pistons re-ringed, crank was turned, balanced and re-seated with new seals and bearings, rods insepected but not replaced. Stock pistons (notched for higher compression).
High volume oil pump
Lunati voodoo cam Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 213/219 , Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .485/.499 and lifters
cylinder bore notched to improve air flow
Heads and manifold ported and valves reseated
Comp cam magnum roller rocker arms, lunati valve springs, longer pushrods, perfomer manifold, hooker ceramic coated headers, msd ready to run billet ignition, Cloyes true double roller timing chain set.
Fluidampr harmonic balancer
TCI saturday night Special torque converter 2500 stall
Heavy duty 4-row radiator, bottom brackets modified and welded, top cover modified, fan shroud mounts moved back 1/2 inch.
I have to upgrade my carb I have a 570cfm street avenger(stock setup) and it's not enough so I'm going with 770cfm street avenger.
Currently working on my rear end upgrading it to richmond posi 3.42 gears and detailing my engine bay.
After the new carb gets tuned and rear end goes back on I'm taking it to local dyno to see what it puts out at rear wheels.
I will also post a link to pics detailing all the work performed I am having hard time posting large size photos in the thread (my firewall or something).

[Redog]

Good job!!

Most People don't think you can hop up a 350 Olds, and most people are wrong

I had a guy at the track tell me there was nothing for an Olds motor, that's why he put a 350 SBC in his 86 Cutlass. Of course he was talking about hopping up that 307 but he told me I can't find anything for my 350 either. Of course I told him he was wrong.

Just becuase you can go into ANY speed shop and get parts for a SBC or SBF doesn't mean that you can't get anything for an Olds, Buick or Pontaic motor as well. In fact I read an artcial once that had the 455 Olds as the #3 best motor to build, #1 was the Buick 455 and #2 was the 440 Hemi, the SBC didn't make that list

[csstrux]

Holy Moses... you didn't mess around did you. I like the proportioning valve placement. Sweet ride man!

[70cutty]

Thank you guys, it took a lot of research, phone calls and emails, but it's almost done.

[J-(Chicago)]

Beautiful.
I'll bet It'll run a 13 now if you tune it right.

[csstrux]

Originally Posted by 70cutty

Thank you guys, it took a lot of research, phone calls and emails, but it's almost done.

Im still doing mechanical chemo on mine so am not in a hurry, but where did you find your info " research " so I can start my do diligence. I have a 350 68 circa with #5 heads and a 72 circa 455 that I know is tired (read shot). The 350 is said to run but had a dead hole when it was last run. The car was a coon nest for about 5 years before I got it with no air cleaner. needles to say the carb is shot, so I didn't fire this pup up b4 I pulled it out of the car, nor have I opened it up yet. Needles to say I am going to have engine work either way I go, I just haven't decided yet. I have at least a year or two before I need to make a decision at the rate I am moving, but want to have a solid workable plan b4 I get there. Any resources or input would be apreciated.

[70cutty]

Local speed shops (Goodies-Speed merchant and GMsports in San Jose, CA) were starting point
Phone calls and emails were mostly to Lunati, Holley, Edelbrock, CompCam, Year One, Jegs.
There is a lot of web sites ON THE TOPIC out there here is an example
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...ler/index.html
Some of the guys here were a lot of help.
When it came to the crank, pistons and the block I had the help of my boss who 's been building and racing midget cars for last 30 some years
He did all the machining.
Set your goal before you start spending money.
Is your car going to be a cruiser, 1/4 mile or a show car?

My goal was reliable mild performance car, something I don't have to tune up every time I want to drive it.

Also after talking to Holley tech I ended up changing the jets and installing Hi performance Accelerator Pump Kit on my 570cfm Street Avenger. It runs great with plenty of power.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by 70cutty

........ Stock pistons (notched for higher compression) ........

What is "notched" and how does it raise compression?

Originally Posted by 70cutty

........ After the new carb gets tuned and rear end goes back on I'm taking it to local dyno ........

Normally, the carb gets "tuned" while the engine is on the dyno.

Changing the rear end ratio, will have little, if any, effect on the power output.

Originally Posted by csstrux

....... Any resources or input would be apreciated

http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...formation.html

And, in particular: http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/45206-post6.html

Norm

[csstrux]

Thanks cutty I liked the article. Gives me a couple ideas.

[70cutty]

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

What is "notched" and how does it raise compression?

To be honest with you I don't know. Like I mentioned before machining was done by my boss who has built a engine or two.

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Normally, the carb gets "tuned" while the engine is on the dyno.

Yes I know, but I couldn't afford to put one in my garage.

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Changing the rear end ratio, will have little, if any, effect on the power output.

The reason I said that was that rear end was sitting on the garage floor as I was in the middle of the build. Upgrading from 2.52 that I had was a big, HUGE difference.

Look guys, I was just sharing what I did to my car. This is no theory, or a pasting from another build. this is my car and I have the pics to back it up.
What have you done to yours??? Please share.

[joe_padavano]

While Norm's bedside manner leaves a little to be desired, his point is valid. Spouting off nomenclature that you don't understand can make one look like an idiot. For example, "notching pistons to raise compression". First, the very act of cutting a notch in the piston increases chamber volume and thus LOWERS compression. What you may be thinking about is using a dome on the piston to raise compression then needing to notch it to get valve clearance. Unfortunately, Olds engines rarely have or need valve notches, especially with the "stock" pistons that you said you have. Unlike most engines, Olds engines are designed to use dished pistons. The size of the dish is varied to change CR. With your valve lift under 0.500" and stock pistons, it's unlikely that you need notches, but the machine shop will ultimately need to determine that with a mock-up build of the engine. In any case, it is physically impossible for notches to increase compression.

His other point is also valid. The axle ratio has zero affect on the engine power output. It DOES have a tremendous effect on the performance of the car, however. Matching the axle ratio to the power curve of the engine, the gear ratios in the trans, the tire size, and the intended use of the vehicle is very important for maximizing performance of the combination.

[70cutty]

piston notch.jpg
Stock pistons (not my original) not aftermarket ones but out of a W-31 engine which are flat top and have a rounded notch and a v notch for higher compression.
I was just listing the things that were done to my baby, I never claimed to understand everything when it comes to machining but still the work was performed and I was just sharing it with everybody.

If you take the time to read the previous post you will see that I never claimed that rear end raises power, all I said that I'm currently workin on my rear end meaning that it's sitting on my garage floor and I can't drive the car to the local dyno shop on 2 front wheels, or maybe Norm has a theory on that too.

It's interesting that before my build I kept asking questions like what cam and how does the new valvetrain affect the performance, NOBODY here has a answer or opinion, but after the build everybody is quick to criticize what I did and how it was done.

[dan2286]

Originally Posted by 70cutty

Attachment 2729
Stock pistons (not my original) not aftermarket ones but out of a W-31 engine which are flat top and have a rounded notch and a v notch for higher compression.
I was just listing the things that were done to my baby, I never claimed to understand everything when it comes to machining but still the work was performed and I was just sharing it with everybody.

If you take the time to read the previous post you will see that I never claimed that rear end raises power, all I said that I'm currently workin on my rear end meaning that it's sitting on my garage floor and I can't drive the car to the local dyno shop on 2 front wheels, or maybe Norm has a theory on that too.

It's interesting that before my build I kept asking questions like what cam and how does the new valvetrain affect the performance, NOBODY here has a answer or opinion, but after the build everybody is quick to criticize what I did and how it was done.

I think people are just confused by the terminology you are using. The pistons are not notched to raise compression, that was the notch they put on the piston to help identify it. I think what it comes down to is that no one wants to see you get riped off, and will let you know i something does not sound right.

[hamm36]

Originally Posted by 70cutty

Attachment 2729
NOBODY here has a answer or opinion, but after the build everybody is quick to criticize what I did and how it was done.

"to-shay" I like that.
I think you did a fine job. I am new to the rebuild stuff, it is hard to get good sound advice, in person, or on the web. I took my motor to a referral and asked, "What do you think?" He asked, "What are you going to do with it?" "Weekend warrior." was my response. And I left the rest to him. I could not be happier with the out come. Turns out he has a good reputation - always after the fact.
Enjoy that sweet OldsPwr.

[70cutty]

thank you hamm.

I apologize if I didn't make things clear. When I wrote "stock pistons (notched for higher compression)" I was describing the pistons not saying that I machined the notches.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by 70cutty

thank you hamm.

I apologize if I didn't make things clear. When I wrote "stock pistons (notched for higher compression)" I was describing the pistons not saying that I machined the notches.

That was not clear and in conventional terminology one adds notches to a piston for valve clearance. Had you said you replaced the original pistons with flattops for additional compression, everyone would have understood.

[Pfiffle]

Hey 70cutty, when you do dyno it, be sure to post the numbers.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by 70cutty

........ Yes I know, but I couldn't afford to put one in my garage ........

OK. But you can "tune the new carb", when you

Originally Posted by 70cutty

........ I'm taking it to local dyno ........

do take it to your local dyno, since that is how it is normally done.

Originally Posted by 70cutty

........ This is no theory, or a pasting from another build. this is my car and I have the pics to back it up ........

Did anyone say any different?

Originally Posted by 70cutty

........ What have you done to yours? ........

Which one?

Norm

[70cutty]

Norm........... dude..............all I can tell you, as ignorant and shallow it may sound -

Yeah, sure, whatever