iuhoops83

In the many auto manuals I have read, I notice several classifications for the 1970 to 1972 Cutlass. Among them are F85, Cutlass, Cutlass S, Cutlass Supreme and, of course, 442.

I have a 1971 Cutlass "S". I already understand the body style difference of the Cutlass Supreme. What I am trying to understand is the difference between "Cutlass" and "Cutlass S". Any help is greatly appreciated. Larry.

Lady72nRob71

I think the F85 and Cutlass were the very basic models.
The Cutlass S was a Sporty version and the Supreme was a more luxurious model with extra standard equipment, like 4bbl carb.
Here is the brochure for the 1972 series, but the nomenclature (sp?) should be similar. The models are well defined.
http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/main.php?g2_itemId=63045

joe_padavano

These are all just different levels of trim on the same basic body shell. The F85, Cutlass, and 442 are all the same car mechanically.

Allan R

Here ya go my friend,

I have the original 1972 Dealership guide sitting right beside me. So to clear up the mystery between the Cutlass and f85. Joe is right...to a point...mechanically they are the same. The lower priced end of Oldsmobile is the f85 for people who wanted Olds but were on a tighter budget. Badging the car as an f85 is something of a carry over from the 60's. 1972 is the last year of the f85. So you're not alone. Cutlass/F85 available in 2 door coupe (post and non post) or 4 door pillared sedan. These lower priced cars usually came with the Rocket 350 L32 and TH350 power team. Trim lines were very downscale for f85 / Cutlass- mostly just the nameplate was put on. You might see some with reveal mldgs or rocker chrome, but not much else. So, the fastback "just Cutlass" is really the same car as the F85. Also, the interiors were very plain with no woodgrain (except around the gauge cluster) on the dash or door trim.

Cutlass S was the "sport" model offered by Olds in 1972. It was only available in the 2 door coupe (post and non post) ;the non post car being the more popular and higher production. 442 was offered as a w29 option package (appearance decals, badging 3:23 posi, and upgraded FE2 suspension) on the Cutlass S and Supreme models only. NB: the glove box emblem on a 1972 442 should not say 442. It should say either Cutlass or Cutlass Supreme.

And finally, if you're not sure about whether it's produced as an f85, Cutlass, or Cutlass S check the VIN and the cowl tag.

Allan R

Allan R

WHOOPS, something was bugging me right after I posted that last one, so I looked it up in my 1972 GM pricing manual.

f85 was only offered as the 4 door sedan not as a 2 door. It's base list price was $3006.00. Also for tranny's it was standard 3 speed. To get the TH350 you had to pay another $221.76.

The Cutlass was available as a 2 door non pillared hardtop (not to be confused with the coupe; which they classified as a post car) for $3022.00 and as a 4 door pillared sedan $3120.00

The f85/Cutlass and Cutlass S all came with a 160 hp 350 that you could upgrade to a 180 hp 350 for another $47.39.

Cutlass Supreme was the only model in this line that came standard with 180 hp 350 that you could downgrade to 160 for a cost savings of $33.70.

Allan R

joe_padavano

That was true in 1972, but not in prior years. You could definitely get a 2dr F85 - my family bought a brand new one in 1965. The various model names were used in different configurations during different model years. They are only marketing designations. For a given year, all A-body cars were mechanically the same and all used exactly the same sheet metal (with the obvious roofline/wagon/number of doors variations). Also keep in mind that 1972 was an atypical year for Olds and GM, since the Colonnade styling cars of 1973 were actually supposed to be released in 1972. A strike delayed the release by a year and forced GM to slap some lipstick on the 71s and call them 72s. The model designations and available equipment in 1972 is not typical of the prior years.

Allan R

Hey Joe,
I bow to your experience of the 60's f85. My information (as posted) was intended for 1972 only because that's what I said I using for dealers guide and pricing guide. If it caused some confusion, sorry. Glad to know some of the extra history behind that model year. I for one am glad that the colonade HT was a year delayed. I really love the look on my car, and wouldn't trade it for anything. Thanks for extra f85 info.

z11375ss

In 68 the Cutlass S was the lightest of the bunch 3308 I believe. Something to think about when purchasing.

Olds64

I read someplace that the Oldsmobile Cutlass was named for a British fighter plane. It this true?

I was wondering where the F-85 name came from? Does it have anything to do with the F-85 Saber fighter jet that was around during the Cold War? I always thought it would be nice to make an Oldsmobile F-86 (Super Saber) along the lines of the Buick GN from the 80s. Sort of the answer to the Buick GN that never was. That would be COOL!

joe_padavano

Actually, a cutlass is a sword used by sailors. The name dates to the 1500s. The F7U Cutlass was a U.S. Navy jet fighter built by Chance Vought in the 1950s. It was the Navy's first supersonic production fighter.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircr...ircraft_id=356

Allan R

Hmmm,
lets see if I got this right??? What you're saying in words = this in pictures? (a selected history) Sorry Joe, no room for the 2 door 64.

Olds64

I could have sworn that this book mentioned something about the Cutlass being named after the F7U Cutlass (I didn't know the US used it). Oldsguy has a copy, I guess I will have to ask him to thumb through it this weekend. I could be mistaken.

http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Oldsm...5813320&sr=8-3

I thought the F86 was the Super Sabre; however, it appears the F100 was the Super Sabre. Oh well, I still think it would be cool to make an Oldsmobile F 86. You could paint it silver with yellow or red on the front valance. Like the jets on the following webpage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-86_Sabre

No offense to owners of the 80s 442s; however, I think they were pretty weak. Especially compared to the Buick GN. Oldsmobile could have done alot better.

joe_padavano

The F7U Cutlass was built by US company Chance Vought for the US Navy.

The F-86, built by North American Aviation, was the Saber Jet. When North American then developed the supersonic F-100, that was called the Super Saber. By the way, Saber is also a sword, but the F-86 and F-100 were Air Force planes and the F7U was a Navy plane.

By the way, there WAS an F-85 fighter plane, the XF-85 Goblin build by McDonnell Aircraft (before it became McDonnell Douglas). The F-85 was a grotesque little airplane that was intended to be carried in the bomb bay of a long range B-36 to provide support over enemy territory since conventional fighters didn't have that kind of range. The F-85 was a poor handling aircraft and mid-air refueling eliminated the reason for it's existence (as did ICBMs).

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/airc...l-F85/f-85.php

rocketraider

Everything I've read about the F85 prototypes indicated they were actually decent handling little aircraft- except when it came time to dock them back to the carrier plane. Seems no one thought about turbulence with two high-speed aircraft trying to literally hook together to draw the small one back into the carrier's bay. They would push themselves apart.

And since the F85 Goblin had no landing gear of its own, it had to belly land if it couldn't hook to its carrier.

The advent of long-range fighter and escort jets made them obsolete before all the reconnection bugs could be worked out.

Olds64

Wow! That is some cool stuff. I have a friend that lives in Dallas that knows everything there is to know about planes. I should ask him about these planes and he can tell me what kind of material the seats were made out of.

Actually, I need to ask that friend if he still has some pictures that we took together in an air museum of an Oldsmobile manual for a machine gun! That is right! It was an Olds war division product made during WWII. I took a picture earlier this summer with the intent of posting it for everyone but he and I never got around to posting it.

joe_padavano

Yes, Setting the Pace, by Helen Early and James Walkinshaw has several pictures of the Olds assembly lines turning out machine guns and other weapons during WWII.

silverriff

Yes I am reviving this old post because I have a question about the info posted in here. I recieved the new Year One catalog for Oldmobile today, and they have a VIN decoder in the front, and I just happened to get my new insurance cards with my VIN on it so I thought hey let's see what it says. I have looked up the VIN before but couldn't really remember the details.ANYWAY according to Year One, and my VIN, I have a 1972 F-85 2 door coupe, which according to this post the F-85 was only offered in a 4 door in 1972. ???? Which is true?

Summerof84

To put it simply, do you have F-85 emblems on your car? If not, then it is a Cutlass. Although '72 would be the only year without a 2 door F-85, a quick search of the internet reveals no such animal.

Allan R

What is your VIN?
I have the 1972 Chassis Service manual handy. It has the breakdown you're looking for. I've known Year One to make mistakes before...

silverriff

No the car has just Cutlass emblems on it, but it has been frankenstiened over it's 38 years. I know from missmatched jamb paint that both of the doors, fenders and hood have been replaced. As for my VIN, it is 3F87H2G119101. I even checked out 442.com's VIN section and it says the same thing. Maybe Yearone got their misinformation from there? Any info you guys could find out would be great!

joe_padavano

Wow, there's incorrect info in the Year One catalog! I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you.

Now here is a 1972 VIN decoder sheet actually put out by General Motors.

http://service.gm.com/dealerworld/vi.../vincard72.pdf

I tend to believe this source. Note that in the "Series" box (item #2), under Oldsmobile, the "F" indicates "Cutlass H.T." and the "87" indicates Holiday Coupe.

Allan R

3 F is the key to your question.
3 = Olds
F = Cutlass

If the car was an f-85, it would start with 3 D

So the Cutlass emblems on your car are correct.

silverriff

Alright cool. Thanks guys for all your help!

ent72olds

We've been down this road before with my car...if F=Cutlass, and not F-85, then what does G=?........

joe_padavano

Um, did you follow the link I posted above? Again, that's directly from GM.

D = F-85
F = Cutlass H.T.
G = Cutlass
J = Cutlass Supreme
K = Vista Cruiser

ent72olds

Difference between Cutlass H.T. and Cutlass?

Allan R

As what Joe said...
Also the next set of numbers will help identify the body style (such as coupe, convertible etc)

My car is 3G87H2M208783

3 = Oldsmobile
G= Cutlass
87 = 2 door hardtop fastback coupe (except 4200 models - they are Cutlass Supreme)
H = 350 2 bbl L32 engine
2 = model year (1972)
M = plant code or "factory" (Lansing Michigan)
208783 = Plant sequence number.

All of this information is provided in the front of the Chassis Service Manuals. How the plant distinguished what car would be a Cutlass or Cutlass S? I have no idea. That's not even on the braodcast sheet from the car. You would need to have an actual build sheet to find that out.

Also, you probably know this but the VIN is different from the Cowl tag. There are some duplications, but the cowl tag provides more info such as the exterior and interior trim options and colors. For example: my trim code is A52- a bench seat. Interior code is 940 which is black naughahyde. Body color is 14/14 - which is silver pewter upper and lower.

You can also get information about your vehicle if you have the original protecto plate. Decoding that is easy if you have the decoding guide (which I do).

I also have some interesting information from GM about the build dates (yes dates) on my car. It started production on the afternoon shift of April 7, 1972 and was completed and shipped to Golden Mile Chev Olds on April 10, 1972. So I've got a car that was built on Friday and Monday. Anyway, that's what they say. Anyone remember back to the 60's and 70's? Did they actually shut down the plants on weekends? I remember those days, but I was only about 16 then and didn't care about factories. I know I had to work Saturday until 6:00 and Mon-Fri after school from 1530 - 1900 except on Thurs when we worked till 2200 (it was a department store and we had to do after hours closing "stuff". Hardly enough time in a day to do homework

Anyway, hope this helps.

ent72olds

Allan,
Being you are the '72 Guru, (and I'm not being facetious(sp?), I ran outside to the garage and with a flashlight, jotted down the #'s off my cowl tag! Forgive me if they are possibly incomplete, or make no sense, as the seamsealer over the rivets was pretty smeared over it! If you could "decode", I would appreciate! Thanks

ST 7233287 R00102 BDY
TR 914 56 59 PNT
08C114

Allan R

I'll take a stab at it for you

ST 72 identifies your car as a 1972 model
3 means its an Oldsmobile (Yeah!)
3287 is the Hardop Coupe (code F87 in the dealer ordering guide) This code appears to be a basic car without any of the reveal moldings or rocker and side modlings, although they could be ordered as options.
R means your car was built in Arlington TX
00102 is the production sequence at that plant (it's actually the body number that was assigned to your car) Looks like you've got a very early run number- possibly one of the first ones built there. Does your car have drum brakes all around?
TR914 is a gold bench seat The trim should be Orion Cloth and is called Covert Gold)
56 is a paint code. It's sunfire gold - lower body color. I can't find a paint code 59, are you sure it's not 57 (Baroque Gold - upper body color)
08C means your car was built in August during the 3rd week

114 - I honestly don't know what this is. You might want to ask Kurt (W-Machines on this site) if he knows. It might have something to do with the fact that your car is 2 tone but I don't know. The 2 colors would be separted by vinyl roof trim, but your car would be called the "Two Tone Magic Mirror Finish".

Does this sound like your car?

1964f-85

FYI, The F-85 Goblin was a techincal study into what was called "Lifting Bodies" aircraft, plains that have a large crosssection, smaller wings and can fly like a glider. You may recognize the offspring of the original F-85.... The Space Shuttle!

ent72olds

Thanks Allan,
Yes, the car was originally a yellow color(looked to be a solid , non-metallic), and had a vinyl roof(white at the time I got it), correct on the bench interior and did have drums all around.....as far as that 59, could be possible it's wrong becuase it is partly hidden under sealer. The car was pretty basic except for p/s, p/b and a/c...it had also been color changed a couple times before I got it.....far from a virgin!

joe_padavano

Unfortunately, I can't begin to know what Olds was thinking then. To be honest, I think the "F" code 1972 was actually SUPPOSED to be an F-85 (since as you point out, it has a 3287 Fisher Body code) but remember that 1972 was an oddball year. The Colonnade style cars were actually supposed to come out in 1972, but due to production delays the 1971 models were given a quick makeover and called 1972s. For example, the only difference between the 71 and 72 grilles on the 442s is the paint and the red vs. black numbers. Many previously available options were dropped in 1972 for no apparent reason. The six cylinder was dropped in 72 but was available again in 1973. Go figure.

In any case, GM considers the "F" code cars as "Cutlass H.T.", and they came with Cutlass emblems, so that's what they are. As my 1968 442 and 1969 H/O prove, this isn't the first time that the Fisher Body code didn't match the VIN.

ent72olds

Good enough for me.....I think...............thanks Joe!

jeffreyalman

but remember Joe the GM sheet was wrong about my 76 CC motor!!!

joe_padavano

My 1972 Fisher Body Manual says the same thing.

BlackGold

I'm late to the party here, but I just want to point out that the differences between F-85, Cutlass, and Cutlass S were more than "just trim level." As you moved up the line, items which were either not available or optional on the lower models became optional or even standard on the higher models. If you can get your hands on a Salesman's book sometime, compare the list of standard and optional equipment for each model and you'll see.

Allan R

Yes, you're right. I have the 1972 SPECS book and the dealer ordering guide (2 1/2) inch leather bounder binder. It has all the information you've described in terms of "one upmanship" as you go from one series to the next. Although, on the sedans, there appear to be more options provided right off the get go.

Mikes65

I know we are talking 72's here but in 65 the Cutlass was the step up from the F-85 and the 442 was a step up from the cutlass. Was the 442 available with the 330 hi comp or just the 400 in 65?

joe_padavano

No, it wasn't. In 1965 the 442 was an option package available on BOTH the F-85 and the Cutlass models. The 400 motor was the only one available in the 442 package.

W70442

Alright, I hope these show up ok. I took them with a camera as I don't have a scanner handy. These are from the 1970 dealer product selling information binder. The ones the salemen referred to when ordering a car.
According to this, it looks like in 70 anyway, the plain "Cutlass" was only available in the 4 door. Go to the bottom and scroll up to see the progression from F-85 up. The "Special Features of the model" section gets larger as you go up. You can also compare the "front", "side" and "rear" descriptions for each model.
Interesting that they left out the trunk capacity on the convertible models only.
The pics are hosted by Photobucket so I don't believe they are taking up site resources.
1970Cutlassspecs31.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs32.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs33.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs34.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs35.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs36.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs37.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs38.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs39.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs40.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs41.jpg
1970Cutlassspecs42.jpg