Macadoo

Sorry for the new thread but I'm hoping to get this job done this week so we can hit the road next week (Niagara Falls!). This is for my '71 CS 2 door coup, 350, AC.

Okay, the main points:
1. Current rear springs measured 9.5" installed. But....
2. Current rear shocks have coil-over shocks, looks like a kit that was added to the shocks.
3. I disconnected the shocks and oh yeah, the springs are shot. Went from 9.5" installed to 7.0 (maybe a little less). Looks like I'm pulling a wheelie!
4. I found the springs I want, Moog 5399 (pigtail x2, good ID, 9.0" install height, 850 load, 166 spring rate, 14.12 free height)
5. HOWEVER; I already bought four KYB gas-a-just shocks for the stock setup, which should be 7.5" install height springs. A good 1.5" shorter (or more, considering the lower spring rate and load rate)

So the question is: do I need to return the shocks, get the new springs in and measure before reordering? Or will that inch and a half not be a big deal?

RandyS

Your shocks will be fine.

Macadoo

Okay, so I just spoke with KYB and the gas-a-just shocks have a 4.5" travel. Subtract 1.5" and that leaves 3", which according to the tech, isn't enough. And it doesn't sound like much to me. So back to the proverbial drawing board.
Anyone have suggestions for shocks on a lifted car?

Macadoo

You really think? I really don't want to start over.

MDchanic

Shocks that are spec'd to the stock measurements of the car should work fine, since what you are doing is returning it to it original specified height.

You can measure the height as described in the CSM in the Frame section, under the title "Carrying Height."
I have no idea how high the springs themselves are supposed to be.

Personally, I would recommend Bilstein shocks if you're going to be doing any real driving - they cost 2-3x as much, but, in ly opinion, at least, they are 2-3x better.
You won't be disappointed.

- Eric

Macadoo

Well, I relocated the spring on the driver's side rear and low and behold, they measure 7.5" with the shocks unhooked. A half inch higher than when it was dislocated. Makes no sense but there it is.
Eric, If my research is correct (a big IF), the stock spring installed height is 7.5". I cross referenced a tag I found on one of the springs that had the number NN 9777794 and came up with Moog 5401, which has an installed height of 7.5". I'm going with a spring with 9.0" installed height. A half inch lower than where the springs were with the coil-over shocks. I like the look
I'm going to try these gas-a-just shocks with the 9" springs and see what happens. What's my worst case scenario here? Damage the shocks? Or worse, the shock mounts?

babs68

Mac,

The build I have now I invested in some Heavy Duty Bilsteins and a set of Moog springs. The ride height is perfect and it feels solid.

There is a website where they sell Bilsteins for a reasonable price. I'll have to find my invoice and post it here.

Macadoo

Thanks babs.

MDchanic

I'd say the worst case is a bumpy ride.

I wouldn't worry about it.

- Eric

Macadoo

Well I ordered the springs and I have the shocks ready to go. I'll report back with the results.
Any problem raising the car from the side, installing one spring at a time? It seems to work better that way. And new insulators top AND bottom, correct?

biggus

If you do it side to side you'll have to disconnect the sway bar.

oldcutlass

I just set the frame just in front of the rear wheels on Jack stands. Jack the rear end in the center, disconnect the shocks and lower the rear until I can pull the springs. Then install the new ones, install the shocks, jack the rear up until I can pull the stands, lower the car, and I'm done.

Macadoo

Will do Eric. Do the wheels have to come off? My unilugs are a pain.
Biggus, I don't have a rear sway bar so no issues there.

Now, to further confuse the issue; I looked up stock replacement springs from three different places and got three different springs.

Rockauto - Moog 6321
Summit - Moog 5379
Jegs - Moog 5379 and Moog 5413

All these have an install height of 8.5 inches. And yet, the tag that came off the original spring cross referenced as Moog 5401 with an install height of 7.5 inches.
Very confusing. I'm fairly confident that I made the right decision though.

oldcutlass

I agree, especially when you want to raise it a bit. You don't need to remove the wheels to accomplish your task.

RandyS

As mentioned, side to side will work against you. If you can get under the car while on the ground easily, just unhook the shocks. Jack up the car till the wheels clear a couple of inches, (put on jack stands) pop out the springs, put the new ones in. Undo the top shock bolts & nuts, remove the old shocks, bolt the new ones in at the top, lower the car back down and bolt them up at the bottom. Pretty easy job if the top shock bolts are not frozen........

oldcutlass

Make sure the springs are clocked right. You can see where the old springs sat against the saddles.

Macadoo

Oh yeah, clocked right. That's the one thing I'll probably forget. I'll stick a post-it on the gas tank or something. I bought new insulators, the old ones look pretty bad.
Randy, I'll make it so
Oh, and I've been soaking all the bolts (front and rear) with PB Blaster for a few days now. Hopefully they won't be too bad. The lower rear nuts came right off. A good sign, maybe?

Can I expect the same sag with the front springs? No coil-overs up there, at least.

RandyS

Huh? If there are no coil-overs up there, it is what it is........ if you feel you need new fronts, check out Moog 5272. (@ Jegs)

Macadoo

So other than air shocks, coil overs are the only "helper" shocks? I just didn't want to remove the front shocks just to see the bumper hit the floor

RandyS

HaHa, no, you don't need to worry about that. The only real help for sagging front springs is spring spacers, which are either metal or rubber spacers inserted between the coils to reduce the space between them.

Macadoo

I got the front shocks swapped this morning. After reading all the horror stories of having to break, saw, torch the stems off, I'm almost sorry to report that the nuts came right off. On one side, I didn't even have to hold the stem! Bottom nuts were just as easy.
No loss in height. Thanks for the info, Randy. I'm glad to report there are no spacers in the springs.
Now I'm just waiting for my new springs to be delivered so I can do the rear. I hope they're just as easy.

Question: the old shocks should rebound after being compressed, yes? These do not.

MDchanic

I may be mistaken, but I believe only "gas filled" shocks expand by default, while the "old style" shocks just sit there in whatever position you leave them in... Or at least that's what I remember.

- Eric

Fun71

Agreed.

Macadoo

So these were hydraulic. Makes sense.

oldcutlass

Well... they are all hydraulic. The gas charge reduces the mixture of air in oil to prevent foaming and subsequent ride deterioration.

Macadoo

That's exactly what I read. I hope these gas-a-justs aren't too firm. We will see.

MDchanic

They won't be.

- Eric

Macadoo

Eric, why don't you just tell me I worry to much? Maybe you're used to it by now, lol.

Macadoo

Alright, new springs and shocks installed on the rear. These Moog 5399 springs are supposed to have a 9" install height but right now they have a 10.5" install height. I hope that settles down a little...but not too much. I kind of like it. Plus the gas-a-just shocks raised the front an inch, maybe a little less, so it looks pretty darn good.
I had to get a little creative to get the new springs in by myself. A little weight, a little leverage. This is the weight box I used to test my torque wrench.

[IMG][/IMG]

As far as performance; the gas-a-just shocks definitely helped with the body roll but they're not too stiff. She rides about the same as before, nice and soft.
All in all, well worth the effort.

oldcutlass

The front will probably settle back down after a drive. The rear springs will take a bit of time. A few sandbags or a big mother in law in the back seat will help settle the rear.

Macadoo

Lol. I'm in no hurry. At least my downpipes are a little further from the ground.
Thanks for the help, Eric.

RROLDSX

Any chance we can get side shots of the stance? I checked out the Moog spring chart and could make no sense of it. When I asked on-line "expert" he told me they don't make springs for my 1969 442. I'll have to start my own thread looking for which springs produce the right stance using a given tire size.

Macadoo

The Moog chart isn't confusing at all. I just printed it out, closed my eyes, and poked it with my pen. That's how it felt anyway. I'll get some pics but I hate straight side pics of my car. They always look weird.
Anyway, I decided a few things on the chart were important to me:
1. The I.D. - I wanted that as close as possible (but there was a little wiggle room)
2. Load - I didn't want the new springs to be less
3. Spring rate - same as # 2
4. The ends - I believe are VERY important. Both pigtails on mine.
5. Free height - to a lesser extent but some of them were around 18 inches tall! I would not have gotten them to fit in there.

The most difficult part for me was figuring out which springs I had on the car. Even though they were original, it was still hard being sure. And in the end, I never was sure.

Pics to come....

Macadoo

[IMG][/IMG]

And a little off-topic but I got tired of scrubbing my back tire lettering just to get it to light beige so I used a white paint-pen on them and they match the fronts perfectly.

RROLDSX

Thanks Mac! Car is looking good. Front is a nice height, the back might be a bit high for my 69 but looks great on your car. Now I want corn for supper!

Macadoo

Lol, not sure field corn is what your desire.
Thanks for the compliments and I agree it's a wee bit high. I'm hoping it settles down, but just a little.

oldcutlass

It should settle a bit. You can always add some weight.

RandyS

That's what the 14" rear seat belt extender is for..........
Actually, I would like to see the front end a bit higher, would look meaner...... of course, a black vinyl top would make all the difference........

oldcutlass

Oooooooooh....

Macadoo

crap