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So I have been bouncing around a few ideas. I have my engine pulled, rebuilt and ready to put back in. But I need to steering/brakes/suspension overhauled/upgraded. My original plan was the PST polygraphite complete performance rebuild kit. (http://p-s-t.com/series-220184-polyg...C%7Cmodel%3D98) Use the Scarebird disc brake conversion, and build a complete air bag setup because nobody makes one for them. That would give me a nice tight front end, disc brakes, and air ride at a cost of about $2,000.
The biggest downfall is its all still original boat like handling just a hopefully tighter, but only single piston front calipers.
OR
A friend of mine suggested swapping in a mustang ii front end. doing a little research, I found this (http://p-s-t.com/series-220184-polyg...C%7Cmodel%3D98)
This would give me "modern" suspension, handling, steering and brakes. Tubular control arm, big disc brakes, pack and pinion steering, easily found and cheaper replaceable parts. The downfall is typical mustang ii are 56.5" track, where the Olds is 62.5" I have seen other kits that go up to that width with extensions, but the main downfall would be cutting the frame to weld this setup in.
So, what's your guys opinions? Has anyone done anything like this? Any experience with the PST polygraphite kit? Does it improve the steering/handling enough to drive like a modern car? Obviously I know the car won't handle like my wrx or miata, but a nice tight front end would be nice. My plan for the car is real driver, drive around town, to and from car shows, it will not be a trailer queen, plans to eventually put some real power to the ground with possible turbos, but I want the suspension/steering/brakes done first.
I don't know your skills, experience, or available tools, but I sense from your questions that a Mustang II suspension installation will exceed your capabilities. More to the point, the MII suspension is really the PINTO suspension, designed for a car that weighs 2500 lbs. I think it's insane to use that design on a 4500 lb car. Yeah, I realize that the aftermarket kits are upgraded, yadda, yadda. The basic design is still from the Pinto. They might be acceptable for a lightweight street rod, but that's about it. The kit you linked to is for a street rod frame, meaning two relatively straight and parallel frame rails. The Olds full size frame is anything but that in the area where this crossmember goes. It will NOT work without massive redesign and fabrication. At the end of the day, you still have an A-arm suspension, with SMALLER brakes and a lightweight steering rack.
I would also be VERY skeptical of the PST kit. I'm not aware of anyone selling correct upper ball joints for the 1965-1970 Olds full size cars. I just went through this with my 67 Delta. The available Chinesium upper ball joints are expensive and don't look like originals. I was able to get correct, old Moog/TRW replacements, which have unfortunately been long out of production. Same thing goes for the steering linkage. Rare Parts is the only vendor I know of who sells new center links. I was able to get new Moog bushings, lower ball joints, and springs from RockAuto. I strongly recommend this.
While I appreciate some of your input, I'm not sure why, because I asked if it had been done before, or opinions, that suddenly means I lack the ability to do the needed fabrication. I have been a certified welder (tig/mig) for 15 years, I have built many custom cars, tube chassis, roll cages, etc. So I am fully capable of doing the work, I'm only asking if someone has done it before and for opinions.
That being said, as for the weight, the mustangs were about 3200 lbs, the 98 is about 4500lb, so I see some of you point on the weight factor, while I would be putting air bags on it, there would be more weight and stress on the balljoints, and steering assembly, which can also be upgraded, as you mentioned, compared to the current setup that can not. The brakes, factory are 11 drums, the typical mustang ii comes has 11 disc, dual piston. which can also be upgraded to larger rotors, and calipers.
As for the frame, I am aware it doesn't have straight, parallel frame, but to install such a kit, would definitely require cutting a section out, and rewelding a straight portion.
I am not defending the decision to go mustang ii, just looking at my options of upgrading, as you mentioned, it's already hard enough to find replacement parts for this car, that replacing with a much easier upgrade-able and readily available replacement part setup is what I am looking at.
And PST, they do sell a center link for these cars (http://p-s-t.com/series-220188-cente...C%7Cmodel%3D98) I obviously can't comment on the quality of the parts, because I haven't ordered them, that's why I was asking if anyone has. I don't see anywhere on their site that mentions what country the parts are from, which makes me think that they could be chinaparts, but they also give lifetime warranties with all of their parts.
I will be calling PST in the morning for more information on their kits, I am curious if they have actually sold any of those kits, or have actual pictures and know that these parts fit.
Obviously, replacing the parts with factory original parts (that are rare, and some situations don't exist) would be a best choice for stock, but I am looking to improve them, I would rather upgrade my original components, but I'm seeing that is difficult to find proper parts, which is why I asked about the mustang ii swap, or any other front end/suspension swap. ***** even the cadillacs from this era had easily found replacement parts, so that could even be an option of welding in a cady front subframe for disc brakes, tubular control arms, etc. Again, just seeing if anyone else has thought about, done, seen or if it's just an absolute terrible idea
This strikes me as a similar proposition to doing a $800 R-134a AC conversion in an old car with the purpose of avoiding paying for a $200 charge of more efficient R-12 because "it's hard to find". Seems like a lot of hassle to go through just to avoid finding the correct replacement part, especially since the Mustang II setup isn't being donated to you for free (still costs $$$ either way).
If you're not into boat-like handling, you're getting into a battle with physics that I don't think you're going to win, at least not to your satisfaction. You are driving the largest, heaviest car Olds offered. Maybe a Cutlass is a better option for what you have in mind?
I totally see what you are saying. Honestly, I personally have been leaning more towards the polygraphite kit, with the scarebird brakes. It wasn't till my buddy tried to sway me on the mustang ii. I figured I would hop on here and run it by you guys. As for the cutlass, I love this 98 way too much, as much of a bitch it is with finding parts because they are rare, the flip side is they are rare so you don't see custom ones at car shows.
I put a PST kit on my 1964 98. I used the rubber instead of the poly bushings. Even with the new bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends etc. the car still had the floaty "big car" ride. The only plus to ordering from PST is the simplicity and price. As Joe said, you can probably find better parts out there, you would just have to pay more.
If you are a certified welder then you would have no problem installing a Mustang 2 front end. The biggest drawback would be expense and time needed to install it.
I've only heard good things about the Scarebird kits. If I bought a 65-70 B/C body that would be one of my first improvements right after a Thornton's dual exhaust manifold.
I was not trying to impugn your technical skills. As I pointed out, you are brand new here and we don't know your background or capabilities. I will say that usually when a newbie asks questions like this, they really don't understand the complexity of the job. They tear the car apart, get in over their head, and the car sits and rots until it gets scrapped. I'm not implying that is the case here, but it is rare that we get such a question from someone with the skills and experience to pull it off.
Having said that, I stand by my comments on the MII swap. You mentioned the brakes, but GM used 11" rotors on the smaller, lighter A-body cars. The optional factory disks on the full size cars were 12" diameter and the calipers used pistons that were 2.95" in diameter. Yeah, I realize you can get Wilwood upgrades for the MII, but that still leaves you with the Pinto suspension design.
If you have your heart set on a suspension swap, you might want to consider the Crown Vic setup. That car is much closer in size and weight to the Olds full size and the suspension is self-contained on an aluminum crossmember. I have not personally looked at how the dimensions compare to those of the Olds, but it might be a better place to start.
I'm sure the center link sold by PST is the Rare Parts unit. It's the only one being made, and everyone sells it (NAPA, Advance, Kanter, etc). It IS US-made. Pricing is all over the map - it pays to shop around. For example,
. As I said, I just went through this on my 67 D88, which is the same front suspension.
If you do decide to go stock, be aware that Olds used two different styles of center link - Thompson and Saginaw. The primary difference is the diameter of the tapered studs and mating holes in the idler and pitman arms. Your 69 only used the larger Saginaw parts, but be aware of the difference when you purchase replacement parts.
The only parts that are difficult to find are the center link, idler, and upper ball joints. Everything else I was able to get brand new Moog parts from RockAuto. I didn't see the need for polyurethane bushings on a cruiser - my car will never be a sports car. Craig at Mobileparts.com can get old stock TRW, McQuay-Norris, and Moog parts for the upper ball joints and idler arm, as he did for me. You can also find NOS versions on ebay if you search the GM part numbers. Be aware that the original upper ball joints are different RH/LH. Also (since everyone asks), Impala parts do not interchange. The Chevy frame and suspension is completely different, front and back.
If you have your heart set on a suspension swap, you might want to consider the Crown Vic setup. That car is much closer in size and weight to the Olds full size and the suspension is self-contained on an aluminum crossmember.
That's worth considering. I've read that the Crown Vic suspension is a popular swap into Ford trucks. As Joe said, a Crown Vic is much closer in size and weight to an Olds B body than a Mustang 2.
I don't want to start up a "technical" debate on the MII geometry/design but I put an MII with coil-overs and a hefty sway bar on my 55 88 custom and it rides and handles great!
This didn't come out of no Pinto.....
The Crown Vic set up would be good option too if the width works. That cross member is cast aluminum.
Our moderator Joe P. is the Most Knowledgeable person on this website.
He has all types of skills, too, from "book smart" to "hands on", and what he says is "Gospel".
Knowing Joe, I promise you, he was not belittling you or your knowledge; he
was trying to help you from making a big mistake... I wholeheartedly agree as will practically everyone on this website that a Mustang II / Pinto Front End is CLEARLY NOT enough for 88s & 98s. (Heck, it's more like a toy!!)
I am Craig, Mobile Parts, who Joe P. mentioned (Thank You, Joe P.) --and I
can help you with some N.O.S. U.S.A. made (REAL!!) parts --- but, sadly,
the Center Links (both the DS734 / TRW Design / .556 and the DS735 /
Saginaw Design / .587) have all been used up in the N.O.S. world -- and we
all must use -- only -- the Repro. (Thank God there is a repro -- talk to
1966 Buick Riviera guys -- and ask them about their nightmare!!!)
If I E V E R do get a DS734 or DS735 N.O.S. again -- I will let all of you guys know instantly............... Yours, Craig......
I build custom cars as a sideline, and I've used both Camaro/Nova subframes, and the Mustang based kits to upgrades REALLY old cars (1930's, 40's 50's) The M2 kits, if you get the upgraded ones, are good for much heavier cars. The tubular A frames, upgrades to 11" GM disc brakes (the M2's had solid 9" rotors), full size Chrysler ball joints, etc., provide the heavier duty service. Most often the geometry works well, too, though I had bumpsteer issues on a kit I put in a 34 Terraplane. Hard to find and fix!
These kits also make it easier to switch to air ride, and are relatively easy to install, if the crossmember was made specifically for the car being worked on. Doing a subframe swap involves adapting radiator supports, sheet metal and bumper mount, etc.
That said, my preference, with regards to ride quality and handling, is the Camaro sub. More fabrication work to do it, but I think it's a superior designed front end. So I'd recommend to you, to work with the stock GM suspension in your car, and upgrade brakes, perhaps the steering box to a faster ratio, and definitely, good gas shocks, and heavier sway bars. If you had springs, I'd say cut a coil or go slightly stiffer on the spring rate to get rid of the wishy washy ride, and handling.
Here is another idea. Replace the entire front frame from the firewall forward with one from a 71-76 Olds 88 or 98 section. This gives you:
1) Easy to find suspension parts and modern geometry
2) Front steer with quick ratio power steering box. Need a longer steering shaft
3) Easy header fitment. Cutlass headers will work.
The downside: it's a huge amount of work and I'm not really thrilled with the idea of a spliced frame. I know this is how they have 'clipped' countless street rods so it is possible to do it safely with enough gusseting and good welding.
Here is another idea. Replace the entire front frame from the firewall forward with one from a 71-76 Olds 88 or 98 section. This gives you:
1) Easy to find suspension parts and modern geometry
2) Front steer with quick ratio power steering box. Need a longer steering shaft
3) Easy header fitment. Cutlass headers will work.
The downside: it's a huge amount of work and I'm not really thrilled with the idea of a spliced frame. I know this is how they have 'clipped' countless street rods so it is possible to do it safely with enough gusseting and good welding.
John, the B/C body cars were the same from 77-85 (and up to 1990 for the wagons)and from 91-96. I'm not sure if the frame was wider or narrower than the earlier B/C body frame.
February 26th, 2017, 12:41 PM
