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I had a pole barn build a few months ago. It's a 40 X 64 and has 14 foot ceilings . What I want to know is what kind of lighting would be best ( LED, T5, T8, standard fluorescent ) ? What kind of lighting are you guys using? A little back ground, I'm older, and need more light to see the finer things , I tinker on cars a lot, 4 or 5 days a week, if I can. I have 1 four post lift and 1 two post lift, I do almost everything myself on these cars, motors, trans, body work, welding. I would like a bright white light. I have LED bulbs in my kitchen, and I like them. One last thing I'm in Indiana, and in winter I would like my lights to work, not hum and flicker. Thanks for your imput.
I converted my 4' fluorescents to tube LEDs in my garage nice white light, no flicker, lights when cold and uses less energy. I got the LEDs on Amazon, I've had them for about a year w no issues, liked em so much I put them in my basement workshop too. You can get different color temperature as well. I got the frosted tubes as I don't like the LED flash bulb effect you get in your eyes when you see a car w LEDs tails the other option was clear.
I put LED lights in my new shop, have not regretted it. They look like conventional fluorescents but are way better. Instant on, no warmup and a nice bright white output......
LEDs are unquestionably the best, but they are still expensive, especially the great big ones you'll need to light a space that size.
LEDs save a huge amount of electricity, but the savings is lost if you pay through the nose for the lights themselves. I am fortunate because in Maine there is a state energy saving thingamajig that results in LED bulbs at Home Depot costing from $1 to $2 each (instead of $8 to $15 each), on a random basis (I check in about every week). At those prices, I can get my money back in about a month if I use the light regularly, but at the higher prices, I might break even after a decade, provided the light bulbs themselves don't fail.
So, that being said, my advice would be that these days, partly because of mass replacement of lighting by large organizations, it is shockingly easy to find giant mercury vapor lights, such as from gyms, etc., at flea markets, the going prices are usually about $5 to $10 each, and if someone's got one, they've usually got a whole bunch of them.
I'd buy a whole bunch of those and install them way up in the ceiling, to provide general illumination, and then I'd install some cheap used fluorescents in spots where you spend a lot of time working.
I'd install all of them with electrical outlets and flexible cords, so that when LEDs are cheaper, in a few years, it will be easy to hang the new ones and just plug them in.
This is what we did in my old man's pole barn, and it worked fine (well, when we started, there were no such things as LEDs, but at this point, when they're cheap, we'll replace the cheap [or free] used lights with new LEDs).
Now I've got a question for you, Rustbucket:
We plan to be making a move in the near future (details, of course, completely unclear at this time), and I may wish to put up a pole barn about the same size as yours.
Could you tell me (by PM or e-mail if you prefer) what features your pole barn has (insulation, doors, windows, roof type, etc.) and how much you actually ended up paying for it, when all was said and done (tree removal, grading, concrete...)?
Thanks!
I will add that regardless of what you go with for general lighting of the barn, my lift experience is such that I recommend adding lighting for the underside of a vehicle on the lift; be it clamp on the lift posts or low on the wall and canted up to light the undercarriage. You will like the result.
LED all the way..i wouldnt waste a dime on fluorescent in a new building..
the one thing ive learned about LED...over a work bench...the height matters..its the way it lights up the bench and throws shadows etc..to high hard shadows too low...washed out light..
Im 55 and lighting has become something that effects my sight...i like incandescent drop lights inside a car under a dash..i can deal with fluorescent ok..but LED under a dash just blinds me...
LED looks like the winner. MDchanic, It's not done yet, still need lights, wall covering of some kind, and ceiling needs sprayed with foam, and still need drive way stoned. 6 windows, 2 overhead doors ( 9x10 and 12x12 ) one service door. There is a 14 x 14 x 5" pad poured under two post lift, its a metal building. I had no trees , but had to level job site. As of now with all that's been done, including concrete ____ wait for it. 42,000 That includes the local electric company charging me 3800 to run power to it!
Last edited by Rustbucket2; March 11th, 2017 at 11:00 AM.
You need lots of general lighting LED is great but most of all you need good task lighting as well. Use projector lights, individual led bulbs, whatever. Try to foresee where you will be working and add plenty of light aimed at that area. I keep mine domed so I don't get a lot of glare or shadows from the task lighting. With high ceiling light you will also need portable lighting to add where needed. I even use those cheap plastic work lights, they work great if you use an led bulb. You can even lie them down on your carpet when working inside the car because they don't get hot and are very bright.
Nice shop....I put up a 40 x60 about 10 years ago...full to the brim. ...all said and done, about 90k....Canadian. Wish I had paid more attention to lighting..my eyes are getting crappy too!
Without doubt it has to be LEDs the light is more natural and easier on your eyes. I don't know about your side of the pond but over here they are phasing out fluorescent lights due to the fact that LEDs are better for the environment and use way less power. I have just changed 40 light panels at work and the energy consumption has reduced by 33 amps, should save me over £1000 per year.
Cool barn by the way. If I had that much space my wife would never see me!
Have not crossed that bridge yet! options ( naturel gas, LP, Electric ) wood is out.
Now that I have decided to go LED's . what should I be looking for. Shape ( round, 4' long, 8' long) . luminous, what is over kill, for what I need? Is there a better brand over another? How far apart should lighting be spaced? Should I go out a buy two or three lights, and see how they work for me? I have 32 outlets in my ceiling, two plug in's for each outlet. ( 4 in a row in a 40 foot span ) and ( 8 in a row in the 64 foot span) , But I think 64 lights are way overkill for sure! Not to mention way to costly! I do have a budget of 2000 to spend on lighting, so that does play a big part. Thanks for all your input, and look forward to more opinions.
heres what ya want for heat..buy a US brand..i go to 100s of shops and this is what most use..and when i worked on the line as a body man..this is what was in my bay..incredible..cheap..and will run you out of the shop..
Have not crossed that bridge yet! options ( naturel gas, LP, Electric ) wood is out.
Now that I have decided to go LED's . what should I be looking for. Shape ( round, 4' long, 8' long) . luminous, what is over kill, for what I need? Is there a better brand over another? How far apart should lighting be spaced? Should I go out a buy two or three lights, and see how they work for me? I have 32 outlets in my ceiling, two plug in's for each outlet. ( 4 in a row in a 40 foot span ) and ( 8 in a row in the 64 foot span) , But I think 64 lights are way overkill for sure! Not to mention way to costly! I do have a budget of 2000 to spend on lighting, so that does play a big part. Thanks for all your input, and look forward to more opinions.
Give me the following information and I will run a photo-metric layout for you. This will tell you where to mount the lights and how bright it will be on a point by point bases.
I'll pick a generic fixture to start with and try to keep the cost within your budget. Does your $2k budget include installation or just fixture cost?
1-Ceiling height.
2-Fixture mounting height. (If you want to suspend them)
3-inside dimensions of building
4-Wall and ceiling finishes. i.e. drywall, paneling, paint color.
5-Rough sketch with dimensions and lift locations would help. If you want an area brighter than another, show that on the sketch too.
The standard foot candle (ft/cd) rating for a mechanic shop should be between 50-100 measured 36" above finished floor. If you want it bright I would lean toward the upper end of that range. I would also control every other light with a separate switch. That way you can use 50% of the lighting when 100% is not needed. For that matter you can add as many switches as you want to (zone) the lighting as you see fit. Adding switches is cheap and allows more flexibility. As others have said, adding task lighting where needed is essential. I would also recommend retractable reel mounted drop lights to keep things convenient and tidy. Retractable receptacles are nice as well.
I would agree with others and recommend an LED light source but you need to be careful if you are sensitive to the harsh light they can produce. You need to choose a fixture that has a lens or a reflector that cuts down on glare. Your shop can be the brightest looking place ever but if it gives you headaches every time your're in there, then it's all for not.
Check with your local utility supplier and see if they offer any rebates for installing LED. Here in Ohio they offer great rebates for commercial projects but nothing for residential. Maybe your garage would be considered a commercial structure??? Probably not, but I would still call the utility company and check it out.
If you know anyone with a commercial building maybe they would be interested in upgrading their lighting. Never know, they might end up ordering too many fixtures and have to sell some to you.
That's nice of you to take time for this. Here goes , ceiling height is 14' . lights will be 13' to 14' off concrete , inside is 39' X 63'. on the walls I will have blue steel first 4' up ( same color as outside of building, rest of wall will be drywall, painted , red 12" up from blue, then rest of way will be light gray. I have 4 switches for lights now 8 outlets per run. I have drawn a very rough drawing of lift locations, and out lets in ceiling, and colors on wall. It will be obvious I'm not a good drawer . Thanks
Give me the following information and I will run a photo-metric layout for you.
That's darned nice of you. I think we'll all be watching to see what you come up with. Thank you.
Originally Posted by Cincinnati Rick
I would also control every other light with a separate switch. That way you can use 50% of the lighting when 100% is not needed. For that matter you can add as many switches as you want to (zone) the lighting as you see fit. Adding switches is cheap and allows more flexibility. As others have said, adding task lighting where needed is essential. I would also recommend retractable reel mounted drop lights to keep things convenient and tidy. Retractable receptacles are nice as well.
Allow me to add experience I've gained from my father's barn:
When he built his barn (about 36x48, I think, maybe 36x60), he laid out porcelain sockets on the undersides of the trusses, in 2 rows, I believe it was 8 sockets, put them on 2 separate circuits, and used 3-way switches, one at each entry (2 barn doors and a people door). Shortly after, I scored my first pair of mercury vapor lights for $5 each, 150W units that are bright, but not stadium-bright, climbed up as far as the ladder would take me, to a couple of feet short of the peak, hung them up there, and wired one into each lighting circuit.
First thing: All of that light provides adequate and helpful "fill" to the entire space, but does absolutely nothing to actually allow you to see anything you might actually need to work on.
Second thing: A few years later, he got a "deal" on twisty CFL lamps and installed them in the porcelain sockets. They take several minutes to warm up, especially when it's cold out. So do mercury and sodium lights. So, walk in, turn on lights, and come back in a while if you actually want to see anything.
Third thing: Two lighting circuits, two switches at each entry - I have never once in the nearly 30 years that that barn's been up seen anyone turn on just one of those switches. Not once. So save yourself the effort and wire your "background" or "fill" lighting to one single switch.
Now, once the main lighting had been installed, it didn't take long for my father to realize that he needed work station lighting. Fortunately, he was able to scrounge a number of 8' fluorescent fixtures. Unfortunately, they were the type designed to hang in open finished rooms, such as classrooms, and so were open on the top (no downward reflectors), so, in the end, he laid tin foil across the tops, as half of the light was being "lost" illuminating the dark colored roof sheathing. Advice: Be sure your task lighting is designed to reflect onto the area where you'll be working.
Also, with the fill lighting being imperfect, if you're working there for any period of time, your instinct is going to be to turn on all of the task lighting, because otherwise you feel like you're working in a tiny "light cave" in a huge well of darkness. If your task lighting is all LED, which uses very little electricity, you may just want to bite the bullet and wire the whole thing to one switch, because, again, you'll usually just walk around and turn them all on (and then off later on) anyway.
Finally, my father did install several hanging retractable sockets and lights.
Every one of these lives either fully spooled in, out of reach in the ceiling, or fully paid out, lying on the floor. That's because if the hanging part is easy to reach, it's low enough for the van to hit it (and high enough not to see it), if it's hanging at a useful level, it's high enough for any car to hit it, or for you to whack it and send it sailing into a car, and so the only really safe places are way down on the floor, or way up in the ceiling.
Originally Posted by Cincinnati Rick
I would agree with others and recommend an LED light source but you need to be careful if you are sensitive to the harsh light they can produce. You need to choose a fixture that has a lens or a reflector that cuts down on glare. Your shop can be the brightest looking place ever but if it gives you headaches every time your're in there, then it's all for not.
Here's a pic of my 40x60 section with 7 led fixtures at 12' - 13' height
Each fixture is 4 - 4' 18w LED tubes.
My calcs indicate 5 cents per hour to operate
Third thing: Two lighting circuits, two switches at each entry - I have never once in the nearly 30 years that that barn's been up seen anyone turn on just one of those switches. Not once. So save yourself the effort and wire your "background" or "fill" lighting to one single switch.
Looks like Rustbucket already has 4 switches installed but I understand where you're coming from.
Finally, my father did install several hanging retractable sockets and lights.
Every one of these lives either fully spooled in, out of reach in the ceiling, or fully paid out, lying on the floor. That's because if the hanging part is easy to reach, it's low enough for the van to hit it (and high enough not to see it), if it's hanging at a useful level, it's high enough for any car to hit it, or for you to whack it and send it sailing into a car, and so the only really safe places are way down on the floor, or way up in the ceiling.
I would recommend hanging these next to the lift post or in-between the doors like Dream66 has them.
Here's a pic of my 40x60 section with 7 led fixtures at 12' - 13' height
Each fixture is 4 - 4' 18w LED tubes.
My calcs indicate 5 cents per hour to operate
Great looking shop. Besides having the skylights to enhance the lighting, you also have white walls, ceiling and a light colored floor. This combination really helps the overall lighting effect. Nicely done!
I also have 6 translucent roof panels (skylights) that eliminate the need for the highbay fixtures on all but the cloudiest days.
p.s. is there a way to edit my own posts on this forum?
I have two skylights in my wood shop and what a difference natural lighting makes. Again, I don't think you can ever provide enough light with general lighting (not that you shouldn't try) but non-glaring directed task lighting is the way to go for us old farts who need all the lighting we can get. Remember to prevent shadows.
Here are a few layouts plus the fixture that was picked out.
With all the layouts you will see a Min./Max/Ave. Obviously the max will be directly under the light and the min. will be on the outer edges. Some of the lights will end up over the lift areas but shouldn't be a problem with most vehicles. A van or truck may be an issue. You can move them out of the lifting area of course.
Here is the 30fc layout. This is equivalent to most warehouse lighting and isle-ways for order picking.
Here's the 50 fc layout. This is equivalent to most office area that also include task lighting at workstations and desk.
Here's the 70fc. This is equivalent to an automotive service area.
Here's the fixture that I have used on previous projects. My cost on this fixtures $227.00.
That's $1,362.00 + tax for the 30fc.....$2,724.00 + tax for the 50 fc......$3,405.00 + tax for the 70 fc.
I would suggest you start out with 6-fixtures and see what they look like. If you feel you need more light, fill in the dark spots later.
This fixture is 14,319 lumens. Keep that in mind when you shop around for other options. Hopefully these layouts will give you a base line to operate from. You can probably find something cheaper with less lumens and still get close to the same results with a few more fixtures. If you find a fixture you are interested in purchasing, get me the specs on it and I can plug it in and see how it compares.
Oh and by the way, most of these LED fixtures have a 0-10 volt dimming driver in them from the factory so you can dim em down if you want to have a garage party.
Very important. Try to use 3800K LED lighting. Studies are showing 4100K LED's and above are distorting vision. I read about it in a trade magazine called EC&M, specifically for electricians. I can't remember what issue, but if I remember I'll forward it to you.
Last edited by zeeke; March 14th, 2017 at 07:24 PM.
Reason: More information
Very important. Try to use 3800K LED lighting. Studies are showing 4100K LED's and above are distorting vision. I read about it in a trade magazine called EC&M, specifically for electricians. I can't remember what issue, but if I remember I'll forward it to you.
Thanks for the info.
I read that mag all the time although I don't remember seeing that article. I have a stack of back issues in my office so I'll take a look tomorrow and see if I can find it.
I recently had a new shop built, so I also had to go through this new lighting exercise. Part of me really wanted to go LED, but it just didn't pencil out. It would take me far too many years to break even.
Happy Trails, what kinds of fixtures are you comparing?
The LED units I've used have drawn in the range of 1/8th to 1/10th the power for the same amount of light, compared with incandescents, and about half of the power compared to fluorescents.
Just curious why the efficiency levels you've got are so similar.
March 11th, 2017, 03:24 AM
