Fixing Rust at Rear Window

[Olds64]

Hello. I disassembled the rest of my interior yesterday. While I was working I decided to remove the stainless trim around the rear window and temporarily fix the rust there. I used a wire brush and drill and ground the rust off. I found that there was about 1/4 inch of bondo back there but suprisingly there isn't much rust. At least I hope it isn't so bad that I will have to cut it out and weld new stuff in. Please take a look at my body work pictures and let me know what I should do.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sunsalamander14/

Can I grind the rust some more and use navel jelly to destroy the remainder of the rust before sealing it with POR 15? Also, what chemical do I use to reseal the window? Or should I just leave that alone. I figure if I want to kill the rust completely I will at least have to remove the silicone that is sealing the bottom of the window. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

[ent72olds]

Hey Olds64, I was just taking a look at what you have there. I didn't see any pics with the glass out unless I missed them. I have a feeling it would pay to have the glass removed then re-evaluate what's in the channel. Especially for peace of mind. You'll be able to do a better repair also.

[Willidog]

I agree, I think if you remove the window you will find things that you don't want to see. I'm talking from expierence. Sorry.

[Olds64]

Hmm... How do I go about removing the glass? Does it require special tools to remove the rear glass. I would hate to start removing it and break the rear window.

[ent72olds]

Absolutely, leave that to the pros. Check online or local yellow pages for a auto glass guy that will come to the house to remove the glass. He'll make it look easy. Probably remove for around $50-$75. Come back and re-install after repair!

[Allan R]

Originally Posted by Olds64

Hmm... How do I go about removing the glass? Does it require special tools to remove the rear glass. I would hate to start removing it and break the rear window.

If it's still the original glass, the seal may be brittle - which may be the source of water leaking and the rust. Unless you're an expert with glass removal (and since you're asking what tools to use, it's reasonably safe to assume you're not) please use a GOOD glass shop to take out the rear window. Just to be on the safe side, I'd also be checking to see if you can get a replacement if this one gets broken. I would let them know up front that if they break the glass taking it out, they will be paying for replacement. Does it have the electric defogger option?

About the rust repair...1/4 inch of bondo back there? That's a lot! You sure this car's never had some kind of body work or repair in that area? I don't believe they rolled off the assembly line with that body filler. Normally that thickness would crack fairly soon and let in a whole lot of moisture. Glad to hear that there's no much problems. Using POR? Yes it will stop the rust, but talking with an expert bodyman, it's not intended for surface repairs because paint doesn't adhere well to it. He says that for areas that will never be seen, no problem but it's messier than what he uses. Do you have plans to repaint the whole car?

Interior shots of the car suggest that it spent all it's life in dry climate or in a garage. And the previous owner seems to have kept it pretty clean. The seat tracks, seatbelt bolts etc look like they are brand new. BTW, what are those 3 square things on the lower part of the front seat (2 on 1 side, 1 on the other)? I don't remember ever seeing them before.

[joe_padavano]

Your car has a glued-in back window. First, do NOT try to grind near the glass. If the grinder just touches the glass, you'll be buying a new window. DO NOT ask me how I know this...

As for removal, it is not very difficult. There is a special cutter tool, but all you need is a length of music wire (about 3 ft) and a pair of wooden dowels. With the exterior trim removed, push the wire through the sealer from the inside to the outside. I use a needle nose pliers to do this. You push the wire between the glass and the pinchweld on the inside and it will penetrate the sealer and appear on the outside. Grab this part and pull it through until the wire is centered inside to outside. Now wrap each end of the wire around one of the lengths of dowel to form handles and (with a helper) work your way around the perimeter of the glass using the wire as a knife.

Once you've completed the cut, get one person on each end of the window. With the back doors open, reach inside with one hand and push the glass outward into your other hand. I usually tilt it out from the top. Once you can grasp the top corners of the glass, pull your arm out of the car and grasp the glass, removing it from the car.

[J-(Chicago)]

Sorry bud. That glass has to come out.
Also, you should have that rust sandblasted out of there.
Your wire wheel is just polishing it.
Once blasted, use some self etching primer, and then some epoxy primer.

[Allan R]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

..... all you need is a length of music wire (about 3 ft) and a pair of wooden dowels. With the exterior trim removed, push the wire through the sealer from the inside to the outside. I use a needle nose pliers to do this. You push the wire between the glass and the pinchweld on the inside and it will penetrate the sealer and appear on the outside. Grab this part and pull it through until the wire is centered inside to outside. Now wrap each end of the wire around one of the lengths of dowel to form handles and (with a helper) work your way around the perimeter of the glass using the wire as a knife......

I did what Joe is saying on the back glass of a 72 Cutlass S. Only instead of a pair of pliers I used a coat hanger and fishtaped the piano wire that way. The smaller diameter of the coat hanger went through pretty easy. The clearance I had wasn't as good as with your 98 on the inside and it was a hot day so the sweat was rolling pretty soon. But one thing that really seems to help soften and cut through the sealing goop is a can of WD40. Have someone spray the area just in front of your "cut" and the wire goes through a little easier. That black goop can be cleaned off with a razor knife, and small amounts just dissolve with the WD. I wrapped mine in a moving blanket to protect it from the wreckers to my home. (best part- for tinted rear window with electric defogger- $25 bucks)

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Allan R

...I used a coat hanger and fishtaped the piano wire that way. The smaller diameter of the coat hanger went through pretty easy...

Interesting. The music wire I use is much smaller in diameter than a coathanger. I think it's 0.020".

[Colorado Olds]

Josh is going through the same exact thing right now - in fact we were just at the shop to schedule them to take the trim off next week so we can see what it looks like on his '66 F85. We thought they had a better chance of getting the trim off without tweaking it than we did.

Anyway, what is the name (or part number?) of the window gasket seal material we need to reseal the window once it's ready to go back in, and where can we find it? We have asked a couple places with no real solid answer.

Thanks for your help. This site has been a real help to Josh and me - you might recall this is his first car.

Jim

[csstrux]

Originally Posted by J-(Chicago)

Sorry bud. That glass has to come out.
Also, you should have that rust sandblasted out of there.
Your wire wheel is just polishing it.
Once blasted, use some self etching primer, and then some epoxy primer.

X2 Also you could use a hi build prime depending on the depth of the pitting instead of using mud. blend final prime wet sand and paint. If you are looking for a quickie fix use a rust converter, but blasting is the preferred method of repair.

[scott_442]

Allan - I believe those are retainers/clips for the seat belt buckles. I had the same on the back seat of my 72 Supreme.

[ent72olds]

Keep in mind that most shops use urethane to install fixed glass these days. The surface (pinchweld) needs to be prepped properly, etch primed and epoxy primed. Do not finish paint the channel with a urethane paint be it a single stage or a clear coat as the urethane the glazier will use will soften this and can result in a weak bond and I have seen this lead to rear glasses "blowing-out" of cars. A properly educated glazier should be able to back that up.

[Oldsguy]

That really could be a lot worse. Unless you are sure about removing the glass yourself consider paying someone to do it. They have a lot of neat tools. I just watched a repairman r/r a front glass in a co-worker's truck last week. They know their stuff and do it well. If you can afford it, consider it. Not dismissing Joe's recommendation at all. Just having the piece of mind would be worth it for me.

[Allan R]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

Interesting. The music wire I use is much smaller in diameter than a coathanger. I think it's 0.020".

Didn't measure the coat hanger, but they're not that big in diameter and it gives a lot of leverage when it's being pushed through and it was pretty easy to bend into a shape that allowed max wiggle room when it was feeding through. If your way works, I'm not suggesting you change. What I liked about mine....the coathanger that got dirty got left behind.... and the piano wire (a freebie) got left behind too. Nothin to clean up but the window.

Oh, one more thing...it paid to wear some gloves, the goopy stuff is better left on the gloves than your hand.

[Olds64]

I am going to call the window shop today. A friend at work that restored a 60s Chevy truck recommended a window shop that will send a technician out to your house. He said he had the front and rear window removed from his truck for about $60.

Once I have the window removed I will take some pictures and go from there. Thanks for the help so far.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Allan R

Oh, one more thing...it paid to wear some gloves, the goopy stuff is better left on the gloves than your hand.

Excellent point, not just for the goop but just in case the glass breaks.

[Olds64]

I called around to different glass shops and finally found one that will guarantee removal of the rear glass without it breaking. They are only about 5 or 10 minutes away from me. The only problem is that I have to install the seat again to drive it down there. The shop owner says he will remove the glass for me and let me prep the window channel before he reinstalls it. Plus he will keep the glass at his shop so it doesn't break while I do work to the window channel. Ultimately, it should only cost about $120 to remove and install it.

[ent72olds]

Money well spent, post pics when you get car back home! Hopefully, the channel is clean.

[Oldsguy]

Good news, remember. No milk crates for seats!

[doc]

Originally Posted by Oldsguy

Good news, remember. No milk crates for seats!

(x2) sucks when you fall off of the crate while driving!!

[Olds64]

sucks when you fall off of the crate while driving

Indeed. I put the seat in yesterday in about 20 minutes with the help of a friend. I am driving the car to the window shop today to have the tech remove the rear window. Hopefully I will post some pics of the rear window channel this weekend.

[Oldsguy]

Excellent, glad you were able to get the seat in. Having a friend to help is good.

[Olds64]

Ok, I just posted some pics of the window channel with the window removed. It wasn't as bad as I feared but it wasn't as good as I had hoped.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sunsala...7609202860207/

I figure I have a couple options:

1) I can slather Bondo onto it and hope for the best.
2) I can use Metal 2 Metal filler to fill the holes.
3) I can use lead or non-lead based body solder to fill the holes.
4) I can pay to have someone cut out the rust completely and weld new panel in.

Ultimately, I think I am going to use option number 2. I am loathe to use Bondo because I have only heard bad things about it. I don't want to use lead filler since it is toxic. I don't want to use non-lead filler because I will have to order a $100 kit and wait a week and a half for it to arrive. Finally, I don't think I can go for option 4 because one of the best body shops in town already said they wouldn't do any work for me because they don't do "restorations." Plus I can't weld hardly at all.

So what do you think? Truthfully, I was sort of bummed out. I have heard that if you don't cut rust out it will only eventually come back. Is this true? I was hoping that I could grind it off, treat it with rust neutralizing gel, coat it with POR 15 or Rustoleum, and then cover and level it with the Metal 2 Metal filler (the stuff with aluminum microspheres).

[Jamesbo]

Olds64

Cheer up my friend

You need a Zin lesson in "eventually."

Yes, it will "eventually" come back.

However, even if it were new it would "eventually" rust.

And "eventually" you will not be around to worry about it.

Remember the movie "Charlie Wilson's War" and the great line "We'll see."

[Olds64]

"Charlie Wilson's War"

I still haven't seen that movie. I have heard it is good.

You need a Zin lesson in "eventually."

Yes, it will "eventually" come back.

However, even if it were new it would "eventually" rust.

And "eventually" you will not be around to worry about it.

True!

Tomorrow, I will at least grind the rust and treat it with the rust neutralizer and converter. I will have to do that no matter what option I use.

[ent72olds]

Hey Olds64, would you be able to access a sand blaster or better yet a mini blaster? If not, I know most autobody supply houses or even harbor frieght sells them. You'd would really be best served if you did that first before going any further. It would be the quickest and most thorough way to clean it out. After that, you could use a product such as All Metal to fill the pits and holes being that welding isn't an option. Fine tune with polyester putty, use an etch primer, then high build surfacer. Whatever you can get at from inside the trunk etc. just wire brush up and por-15 that. Try to brush into whatever cracks and crevices you can. You should be pretty good to go, you'll also need compressed air for the blaster.

[dhoff]

When I took the back window out of the 71 Cutlass Supreme to repair rust around it, i installed a new panel from the window to trunk lid. At that time I drilled a small hole in each corner and mig welded a piece of steel brake line in and ran a drain to the inner wheelwell. I'm hoping this will stop the water from laying by the window.

[Olds64]

would you be able to access a sand blaster

I don't think so. A friend asked me if I could do that. He had his 60s Chevy truck completely sandblasted when he took the frame off. I might take a trip to Sears and see if they have a kit that I could use.

[sworthy555]

Metal is always the way to go and bondo is used and will work as long as there is no rust. My first experience with POR 15 was memorable. Just don't get it on your hands etc. Takes a while for it to wear off.

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by Olds64

I don't think so. A friend asked me if I could do that. He had his 60s Chevy truck completely sandblasted when he took the frame off. I might take a trip to Sears and see if they have a kit that I could use.

Sand blasting an entire body is tricky at best. wheels Ok, frame Ok but on thinner sheet metal you might be sorry you tried it. Just MHO

[citcapp]

I use silica for blasting causes much less damage then sand and works at a lower air pressure. I was at harbor freight buying a 1000 lb engine stand and they had sand blasting tanks the hook to an air compressor for as low as $74.00. I think I will buy one when I start on the 1948 Olds to take of the surface flash rust.

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by citcapp

I use silica for blasting causes much less damage then sand and works at a lower air pressure. I was at harbor freight buying a 1000 lb engine stand and they had sand blasting tanks the hook to an air compressor for as low as $74.00. I think I will buy one when I start on the 1948 Olds to take of the surface flash rust.

Do you recall how much sand it would hold? Capisity is very important if you don't want to be filling it up every 2 min.

[J-(Chicago)]

I have 500 lbs of blasting media on the side of my garage that I swept up. Too heavy to mail it to you though.

[Oldsguy]

Someone at work bought a small hopper/gravity feed blaster unit from Harbor Freight , I know, I know Chinese crap. But, for seldom used jobs, it works for him and might be an option. Then the only thing you need is the air. I like Jamesbo's comment and agree, eventually is a long time away.

[Jamesbo]

I have one of those Harbor Freight gizmo mini blaster [as well as a large sand blaster o wheels] I did some lawn furniture with it but once again the hopper is small and requires refilling often.

CAUTION

SILACA POISONING [silicosis] WILL KILL YOU. NEVER SAND BLAST WITHOUT PROPER LUNG/BREATHER PROTECTION [AND I DON'T MEAN A CHEAP MASK]

PROPER PROTECTION IS A MUST FOR EYES,LUNGS ETC.

[citcapp]

Harbor Freight had 4 or 5 different sizes. I looked like the $74.00 unit would hold about 25 lbs. The largest one they had was I believe around 150-175 bucks and looked to hold maybe a 100 to 150 lbs. I am going to go look at them again and will provide more infromation next week.

When I blast I do so on a tarp and have re-used the media several times.

I use a full face breather mask with replacable filters when ever I media blast. I was watching speed the other day and there was a blip about blasting with a soda mix that was non-toxic. I didn't catch the whole thing. I am going to try and find out more about it.

[gh5168]

I bought a siphon feed sandblaster from Harbour Freight. It holds 90lbs. I used sugar sand which is very,very fine. It worked very well. The only draw back with one of these blasters is that you have to be patient. I was told by a friend of mine that the pressure sandblasters will remove paint and rust faster but they also will get the metal very hot and could possibly warp the metal. I had no warping with the siphon feed blaster. I eventually was able to blast the entire car and frame. I want to say that I paid about 100.00 for the unit. The sugar sand cost be 8.00 per bag for 100 lbs

[Olds64]

Yesterday it was 70 degrees. I used the fair weather to attack the rust. I ground on it with rust stripper wheels, wire wheels, and sand paper. Then I used rust dissolving gel to treat the rust 3 times. After that I attacked it with the stripper wheels, wire wheels, and sand paper again before cleaning it with denatured alcohol. Finally I used the Rustoleum Stop Rust I bought and painted it. You can check out the photos here.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sunsalamander14/

Overall, I am pretty pleased. The rust dissolving gel seemed to work well. I know it isn't as thorough as using a sand blaster or cutting out the rot and welding in new metal but this is the best I could do. Plus, it is more durable now than it was before.

Either this afternoon or later this week I am going to clean everything thoroughly with denatured alcohol and use metal filler to fill the holes and bumps created by the rust. Then I will sand it smooth and fially coat it again with the Rustoleum primer I bought. I will post pics once I do this. It is only supposed to get to 40 degrees today. On Wednesday the high is 60 degrees. I want to makle sure the metal filler has a proper temp to set up.